View Full Forums : An Open letter to Cleric Trolls and Cleric Message Boards.


Windfyreskii
10-06-2002, 01:45 AM
Couple things I would like to get off my chest. I have been banned from all cleric boards basically because I stick up for druids. I know plenty of clerics read the posts on this board (because they refer to them on there boards).

The War
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It seems to me there is a huge message board war between clerics and druids. If you say I'm wrong, well your blind. Clerics even started there own club "The Bitter Clerics Club". Which in my opinion is very very funny. I know clerics in that club, and it seems all "loyalty" goes away when faced with 100pp for a rez! LOL.

This war is stupid. I also this think we as "priests" should really stop fighting with each other. There is no reason for it. I think a lot of people have pride issues when it comes to his/her class and it gets in the way of the posts they leave.

We all complain about "balance". This is the one word we all fight about. We want this, you want that. The idea of "balance" is NOT what the cleric wants, or what the druid wants. ITS WHAT VARENT WANTS. They made the game, we are what they created. They will change it as they see fit. Remember? "Your in our world now"? Exactly.. There world, rules, ideas, etc.. We simply rent this addiction for 12.95 a month. Our input helps, our rants are herd but that's it. They consider them, and go do what they want. Remember ladies and gents.. This game is going to end one day.. They pull the plug, you dont take your toon with you. Its over.

No matter what we do, or say.. if Clerics got a 3k nuke tomorrow, there isn't jack we can do. If druids got a group Tunares Renwal there wouldn't anything clerics can do. I have yet to see a spell go live, and then yanked later. I have seen it cut down a bit, but once its basically live.. that's it. What are we going to do? Mass Cancel? Well you go first, because I put too much time into my toon to just cancel over a stupid upgrade another class got.

The Clerics Side
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A lot of Clerics feel as if Varent turned there back on them. When it comes to druids they see a class that can heal almost as well as them, buff almost as well as them, and have DPS that can out damage most other classes. Clerics want more offense while keeping what makes them clerics.. This would be healing and buffing. So when it comes down to it..
From what i have read trolling the cleric boards.. Most clerics that rant about what they should get - want: More Direct Damage, Snare, Inviso vs all (not just undead), more Dots vs the Undead, Better over all DPS. At the same time they want also have the best heals and buffs. Sounds good in theory but...:

Why this is bad: If you were granted these things, you WOULD be a druid but with better healing and buffs. You would dominate the caster side of the game. If you want all those abilities with less healing and buffs, start over as a druid or Shaman. You class is not meant to dish out a ton of damage or to disable your foe. Your BASIC function is to heal and buff, because your the best at it.. all the other stuff is support roles.. like nuking and meleeing and ridding the world of the undead.



The Druid Side
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Druids have so many abilities that a lot of people feel as if they are overpowered. For the longest time I heard "Your overpowered" at the same time you hear "No we don't need a druid in the group, go quad!". I still don't understand that. Why wouldn't you want an overpowered class in your group? Wouldn't that help? Well the truth is, we are not over powered. We just have a lot of abilities mooshed together. Since we are not the best at any one skill we are low priority for raids and guilds. We have turned into an exiled solo class. As strong as we are, we could rarely find a group without really fighting for it. Now with the new Cheal, we get a lot of groups and help more during raids. No cleric to heal? Fine! Send in the druid. That's a good thing.

What a lot of druids want is: A Unique Ability that makes them needed. (i.e. "Group needs druid to move").

Why this is bad: Druids want a unique ability. We probably complain more then any other class about getting more and more upgrades. Why? Seriously haven't you noticed this? But Why? Ill tell you. Since we master in nothing our class always feels incomplete. And every time we get an upgrade still feel that way. It will always feel that way because we WILL NEVER EVER EVER EVER get an unique ability. We just have to deal with it. We went into this knowing this right? We all knew druids were the jacks of all and kings of none. Besides this new heal, every other upgrade someone always bitched about it. We are never happy. That's our downfall, and we need to fix it. DRUIDS ARE NEVER HAPPY. This pisses people off because they see what we have, and we want more. Like a spoiled child with 20 cookies and still wants another.

TO SUM IT UP
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To sum up the war between druids and clerics it comes down to this. We both want what each other has. Clerics want more damage output and druids want more buffing and an absolute need in a group. Well guess what guys. Both of us will NEVER get these things so lets all STFU? Starting with me!

Oldoaktree
10-06-2002, 01:57 AM
Generally I agree with your post.

I can't poke holes in what you say about clerics...it agrees with my view. They ARE the best healers and buffers and if they also were the best priest class at dmg then there would probably cease to be druids since there would be little reason to play one.

On the druid side, I have to disagree with you. Oh, I agree we may NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER get a unique class defining ability. But I don't think that means it is right or ok.

My reasoning? The bard. There is no other class in the game that is as much a jack of all trades as a bard. And yet, while their skills are not UNIQUE per se, they have the unique benefit of stackability. They do have hte best resist buffs, but not only that, they add to other classes resist buffs. Ditto for their melee buffs. And well basically anything they do. Some feel bards don't stack so well with each other (I disagree we happily put one in every melee group we can), but they definitely are able to add unique and valuable contributions to a group or a raid in spite of being the true jack of all trades class.

Druids are the ones most often given that moniker, and yet we have very few abilities that stack with any other class. Our healing and dmg are stackable (as are bards of course), but our buffs less so.

There is plenty of room to give druids something more to contribute with the skills they already bring...simply by making those contributions additive to those of other classes rather than a gimp version of something someone else always does better.

toreyj01
10-06-2002, 05:45 AM
Promised myself wouldn't post here, but appreciate your nice approach :)

Clerics do not neccesarily want more damage output, that is a fallacy. Any more damage output we step on Pally's toes and den dey step on ours, and they wear plate :p

What we need are tools for soloing, nothing more. That means invis (only caster without invis, try imagining doing a corpse run without speed, ports or invis, it's something we have to do a lot). Invis potions are not soulbound, they are on your corpse, just like your jboots, sow potions, and all the other things you think replaces this need. It's ludicrous, we need invis, even the lowest level one at level 56.

We need the ability to have our faithstones soulbound so we can recoup equipment if Verant will not furnish this.

Now Verant wants us to mellee for solo experience. As it stands it is less efficient than root and nuke, since we cannot root/rot due to the inefficiency of our undead dots. There is no reason that our undead dots should be less efficient than our overall nuke. Judgement is better than any of our undead line, that doesnt make sense. There is no reason we shouldn't get this upgraded, just add three ticks to the undead line each and consider it done.

For mellee we cannot increase our DPS, no way no how. But we can mitigate the damage we take. We should be able to take it but not dish it out. If we are the only mellee caster than we should have the same dodge ability as int casters, the same 1hb/2hb as shammies. the same damage table as the lowest plate mellee (bards), and the ability to block but not riposte. The only time the Cleric should be taking shots is when they are soloing or grouped with another healer as a duo, that is perfect then. It turns into more a war of attrition and I think that is acceptable.

Personally, I have nothing but respect for druids and am happy for the things that you have received, long overdue in my opinion.

Goldenblade
10-08-2002, 08:34 PM
Upcoming Nerfage because of whiners
eq.crgaming.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=4811 (http://eq.crgaming.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=4811)

First off all, let me emphasize that I am not knocking on druids. I have met alot of good druids in my EQ time that dont complain or whine. With that, I have met just as much that complain about everything.

I was disappointed when I learned Verant was going to give druids a 3k heal. When they said they would look at it, I was relieved. Then they put it into the game with a 10 second cast time. I agreed with that and went on my way. Later on, I got into a discussion with a druid that said druids suck. She wants to heal like clerics and nuke like wizards. When I asked her where this puts clerics and wizards, here is what she said

'Well, clerics can still rez and wizards can translocate.'

I have never in my EQ time hated the druid class so bad. Not so much that the class is by far 'uber' or 'over-balancing', merely because of the people that play them. 40% of the druids I have met complain that their class sucks, that this class can do this and that and I cant.

Every class has their roles. Druids nuke, heal, buff, and port. They may not be the best in the game compared to another class, but they can do it. A druid is meant to replace those class that are lacking. Don't have a cleric? Snag a druid, especially since the 58th level 3k heal. Need a nuker and no wizard present? A druid is a fine choice.

Every class has a role. Remember, you cant modify a class without stepping on someone's toes, or better put, screwing over a class.

When luclin came out, wizards had the only means of transportation, short of walking, to the nexus while on the moon. What happened? Like always, a few druids whined that wizards can port to the moon. From a gameplay standpoint, druids porting to the moon is fine. From a roleplaying standpoint, it makes no sense.

There are 2 kind of whiners in EQ
1. The Whiner that has something to whine about
2. The whiner that doesnt know the true purpose of their class.

Question is, which category do you fall under (You being directed at whoever whines about their class)

( Please excuse the spelling, dont feel like trying to spellcheck on this crappy 24k connection )

Oldoaktree
10-08-2002, 11:29 PM
Is this in any way pertinent to a discussion about cleric and druid issues?

Raystlem
10-09-2002, 09:04 AM
Later on, I got into a discussion with a druid that said druids suck. She wants to heal like clerics and nuke like wizards. When I asked her where this puts clerics and wizards, here is what she said

'Well, clerics can still rez and wizards can translocate.'

I have never in my EQ time hated the druid class so bad.



Let me get this straight. You talked to one greedy druid and that made you hate the entire druid class because of her ignorance?

Druids are not asking to heal like clerics and nuke like wizards. We would be happy healing half as well as clerics. I have not seen any druids complaining about our nukes.

Goldenblade
10-09-2002, 11:23 AM
It wasnt just her, she is just the one druid that stands out in my mind =)

Everyone knows that druids need to heal better. Verant just has a bad reputation of screwing (rather...stepping on the toes) of other classes.

Where is shaman healing in this picture?

Kildaere LiSiofra
10-09-2002, 11:34 AM
Hi.
I may agree with alot of stuff you post Wind, but really, I find your attitude to be quite abrasive and unsettling for whatever reason. Perhaps that is just me.

The thing that really drove me to post on this thread is this. I have read thread after thread after (/yawn) thread that you have created here in the past month or so. And in every single one, when you make reference to VI, you spell it incorrectly. It is V-E-R-A-N-T, NOT V-A-R-E-N-T. A typo is a typo, but you do it in every thread.

Call it unreasonable or whatever you will, but GD that irks the hell out of me.

Thank you,
V. Kildaere Li'Siofra

FyyrLuStorm
10-09-2002, 12:32 PM
I like the VRant varient the best.

Raystlem
10-09-2002, 12:52 PM
Where is shaman healing in this picture?

The whole point that druids are trying to make is; out of the 3 main priest classes (Clerics, Druids, Shamans), we are the only class that cannot act as the primary healer for the post 50 game in most situations (and with a lot of downtime in the places where we can). Shamans have slow to offset their lack in healing. Druids have a wimpy DS. Even if you only slowed the mob for 50% that is 50% less healing you will have to do. And slow is scalable DS and DD are not.

Druids have a nice heal spell for now. Does it help druids from level 49 to 57? NO! Did they fix clerics ability to solo from 40's to 55? NO! Are they finished with class balance? NO!

BTW I am not against anything that helps clerics solo. They should have invis and they should be one of the most powerful classes when it comes to fighting undead as lore and roleplay would dictate.

Goldenblade
10-09-2002, 10:50 PM
Lets compare the healing power of Shaman and Druids post 50 (Not counting regen spells)

Shaman
Level 51 - Superior Heal (583)
Level 55 - Chloroblast (42:cool:
Level 58 - Kragg's Mending (1950)
Level 60 - Torpor (1200, 6 sec cast time, 24 sec heal over time, snare effect on target)

Druids
Level 51 - Superior Heal (583)
Level 55 - Chloroblast (42:cool:
Level 58 - Tunare's Renewal (2950 Max)
Level 60 - Nature's Recovery (978 Max, 5.5 Sec Cast time... This is on par with the Clerics Etheral Remedy...which is 975 in 2.75 cast time.)

My point being, druids and shaman heal almost equal. Both classes have the role of backup healing. With the new spells, they can main heal, just not as effecient as clerics.

You want to compare your heals to shaman heals and the fact that shaman can slow. For the sake of arguement, how about we mention the fact that druids can port, snare, dot, nuke, heal, and buff.

All and all, seems rather fair IMO. Druids almost fine as is. Despite a few adjustments that they do need, IMO...they are fine in terms of healing.

In short, Druids are backup healers. Just as shaman are. If the druids that complain would just accept that fact, this game would be more enojoyable =)

Treyna Pynecone
10-10-2002, 03:25 AM
I so love how non Druids will come here and compare my class/spells/abilities to other classes then tell me what I SHOULD be wanting, griping about and what I should stay hush about. WOW... with all these non Druids here talking and thinking for me, damn, they might as well load up my toon and go to town!

If you are not a druid.... kindly take what you think is correct and go put it on your own class board and leave us alone. WE play the toon. WE know what is broken. WE know how to fix it (usually). WE can think for ourselves.

Thank You.

Yumanea
10-10-2002, 06:04 AM
hi guys, I've been reading this board with great interest ever since the new heal for druids was announced. as a cleric, i hailed this with a resounding "about darn time". Yes, i had issues with some druids, but i said nothing since this is your home.


Couple things I would like to get off my chest. I have been banned from all cleric boards basically because I stick up for druids. I know plenty of clerics read the posts on this board (because they refer to them on there boards).


umm, no you haven't. although the message board i co-admin is certainly not the largest it does have a friendly community. personally i welcome other classes posting, i feel it improves the knowledge base of all if we get together and discuss tactics and learn how each other plays.

i don't know what the policy on links to other sites is, so at the risk of offending someone. the board is here i would welcome input from druids as to how the changes have effected you. all we ask is no flaming please.

Aamadar LeCambrion
10-10-2002, 07:30 AM
Quote

If you are not a druid.... kindly take what you think is correct and go put it on your own class board and leave us alone. WE play the toon. WE know what is broken. WE know how to fix it (usually). WE can think for ourselves.


Please dear druid responding in this thread look at the title of the thread. The gentleman in question though is not a cleric.

Quote

Why this is bad: If you were granted these things, you WOULD be a druid but with better healing and buffs.


This made me laugh and chuckle. I thought how ironic it is. The only thing I have ever wished for was self invis.


Quote

Your BASIC function is to heal and buff, because your the best at it.. all the other stuff is support roles.. like nuking and meleeing and ridding the world of the undead.


My basic function is to have a bit of fun in the game. You guys and gals got your heal more power to ya. Now go have fun with it.


Quote

Hi.
I may agree with alot of stuff you post Wind, but really, I find your attitude to be quite abrasive and unsettling for whatever reason. Perhaps that is just me.


I agree but the guy sometimes has some good points if you look through the crap.

Quote

Druids have a nice heal spell for now. Does it help druids from level 49 to 57? NO! Did they fix clerics ability to solo from 40's to 55? NO! Are they finished with class balance? NO!


All I have to say here is I think it is pretty much done if you look at the Nerf coming to the next patch. Mages, Wizards, Monks, and Clerics (ok not a nerf unless your in a uber guild with tanks routinely breaking 8k health seems to me that is or was the argument for the new heal shammys and druids got).

The cap to complete heal lowered to 7500 is no big deal for me or for most clerics. The only ones sweating this maybe are your top tier guilds that will blast through the new content in POP and have their tanks break that mystical magical barrier that all healing is balanced against for the top few % of all players.

As far as a perceived war against clerics go to your general section and now there is a perceived war against wizards. Who is next?

One last quote

Clerics even started there own club "The Bitter Clerics Club". Which in my opinion is very very funny.

I think that was in response to a certain club led here by Mr. Aidon. Results speak for themselves.

Be well and safe all

Aamadar LeCambrion
Templar of Mithaniel
Fennin Ro

Raystlem
10-10-2002, 07:35 AM
You want to compare your heals to shaman heals and the fact that shaman can slow. For the sake of arguement, how about we mention the fact that druids can port, snare, dot, nuke, heal, and buff.


You missed the point entirely. A lone shaman (no other healer) can keep his group alive efficiently due to slow. A cleric can keep his group alive through raw healing power. A druid pre level 58 cannot. Also, according to your argument, shamans cannot dot, nuke, heal and buff? Think your argument through before you post it.

I get sick and tired of other classes saying druids dont need to heal effectively because they can port, snare, dot, nuke...

phluux
10-10-2002, 07:57 AM
Goldenblade--

Nature's Recovery is not heal, its a short regen. The duration of that spell is 3 minutes. You can't compare that to a cleric's HoT.

Bam102465
10-11-2002, 08:48 AM
Let's all look at Goldenblade's sig and the description therein and that will tell you something about his mentality. Newsflash: druids don't have a role, they haven't since the game started. I made this point in another thread.

Being second-best(or worse) at a bunch of different things IS NOT A ROLE! Role = something you excel at, ergo something that will make you desirable and give you a niche in the Everquest cosmos. How would you like it if a wizard's role was "to fill in for some other class because they're not available". In other words, being a second-class citizen in an extremely social world. It's like "we can't find anyone better so we will have to settle for a druid". I don't know of anyone that would like that kind of role.

I claimed in the other thread that the druid class was broken from the start, that there should be no jack-of-all-trades class in any MMORPG because they will always feel left out and will get passed over for something better. That was one of Verant's big mistakes(among many).

Kohrian
10-11-2002, 11:11 AM
Playing devil's advocate I will say that being a jack-of-all trades is a role, as you excel in the area of being flexible and adaptable to whats needed. However, what would give druids real end-game viability is the same thing that makes bards (another jack-of-all-trades) viable: stackability.

If druid buffs and debuffs *stacked* with all other class's buffs and debuffs, druids would be very much loved I should think. They would be loved for the same reason that bards are loved. Aego+PotC would rock! Casters would insist on having both, and that alone would increase druid desirability.

But, in raids, if I have a choice between "best" buffs and "2nd best" buffs, I am going to take the best. If I have the choice between "best" healer and "2nd best" healer, I am going to take best. This is also largely true in pick up groups (ie. non-friends/guildies) where you are looking for "best." Most of the time, "best" is available.

Short on nuking power: a druid can fill in but they will always be 2nd best to wizards and arguably should by a significant margin given druids additional means of aiding DPS)

Short on healers: a druid should be able to fill in, but nearly as effectively as a cleric (once again, because druids can do so much more than clerics can)

Have random open slot: A druid should be a good choice here with additional DPS, fully stacking buffs, snares, evacs, ports, etc.

Just my opinion. But then again, I'm just a guy with a cleric main and wizard alt, so what do I know? ;)

Kohrian
10-11-2002, 11:12 AM
(my previous post should have been NOT nearly as effectively as a cleric.../sigh)

Oldoaktree
10-11-2002, 12:06 PM
Level 60 - Nature's Recovery (978 Max, 5.5 Sec Cast time... This is on par with the Clerics Etheral Remedy...which is 975 in 2.75 cast time.)


Um...I doubt Ethereal remedy takes 3 min to heal 975.

NR is a 30/tick regen for a short duration (think it is 3 min). As heal it is generally useless. It can be used to offset some dmg as it is taken, and in rare cases you might use it to help regen some health on someone who is low on mana.

But it has an appalling recast time and basically rarely is used.

Goldenblade
10-11-2002, 05:25 PM
Correct, pre 58, druids heal for crap. But, as someone stated in this post, 'they hate comparing abilities. Slow is an ability. To inlcude slow into the picture for healing would be wrong. The fact remains, although a shaman can be more effective on a mob that is slowed, a druid can be just as effective if they dot and nuke as well as heal.

Like I stated, druids need work. The heal at 58 is more than reasonable.

As for Bam. You are showing the true mentality of an Everquest player by attacking someone IRL other than stating the true problems. If you want to insult me, that is your option, but you are only showing yourself to be just as ignorant.

As far as druids are concerned, I play a 46th druid on and off. So, I am technically not a non-druid as it was put.

/shrug. Who really cares. I just want to play this game and have fun

Belkram Marwolf
10-11-2002, 07:51 PM
I think the current problem about balance is what is actually balanced versus what the players of that class want.

The never happy camp flourishes on this site. I see requests for HoTs, Group Heals, Group HoTs, CH, Res, increased nuking, increased DoTs, more more more. By wanting more the specialists at both ends, Wizards and Clerics get marginilized because they are not built for anything else really.

Clerics for a very long time were ok with their lot. They were things that could improve and there were flaws in the class but overall we were ok with things because we were needed and so long as we were advancement was possible.

Verant simply stopped thinking originally. Things kept going up and up and up. A few things scaled up appropriately. Melee Gear, Slow, Haste, Mana regen (to some extent), and CH because it had no real limits. Think back. Remember when a nuke of 1000 was a big deal? Why was it a big deal? Because melee could only approach that damage in 5 to 10 melee rounds if that. Caster Damage was appropriately scaled to encounters. Heals were appropriately scaled to the encounters. If anything right now, Wizards should have a 3500 point raid only nuke (how you would engineer that is beyond me) and druids should be at about 75 percent of that. Same for heals. Raid only, scale me right. Problem is it destroys the integrity of the regular experience earning encounters.

So here we are with a Class that nukes well, DoTs, Snares (please dont tell me its not important, it is in groups), gets ya there without spending money or using items or potions (not so important but a factor), heals well, buffs well, can dire charm some targets, and finally damage shield. This class also has options to earn experience on their own due to the dearth of group positions they can fill.

On the other side we have a class that nukes so so (stuns being the saving grace there), Buffs the best, heals the best and can fix things if it goes wrong (again not a huge factor but nice). They have really poor soloing options and can expect competition from an exceedingly good solo class, the necromancer in many camps.

Both class have gotten some bad nerfs here and there, both classes have been the target of "balancing" by Verant. Druids recieved many upgrades essential to making them viable in a raid role : DoT stacking and 3k heal being the biggys.

Clerics have recieved more heals that they didnt ask for and probably could have easily done without and a soloing method that is no more efficient than our current methods. CH has now been nerfed. The effects probably will not be felt until well into Planes of Power but just as the spell was going to reach its full potential, it has been nerfed.

Is it any wonder some Clerics are angry? The dev teams do not have a damn clue how to make us viable soloers. But at the same time we have watched Druids get almost every single item in their petition one thing right after the other. We have one thing that truly matters to a group when it comes to experience : healing. You can now supplant us nearly anywhere. Its fact. We dont have viable options to earning good risk versus reward experience outside of a group. I bring this up and I get the reply welcome to the world of every other class in EQ. To which I reply, How many healers per group? Oh yes 1 or 2. How many damage dealers of varying sorts? 3 sometimes 4 rarely 5 (Crowd control maybe). So you have 3 classes competing for 1 or 2 slots per group. 1 Class can do one thing and ONLY one thing well. The other 2 have a DIRGE of other abilities to bring into play. We are stuck. We really are. We are frustrated. And we are tired of not getting something significant that ISNT healing.


Belkram Marrwolf

PS Wind if Rayne banned you, Im willing to bet you engaged in the name calling nonsense he wont tolerate on his site. Even the regulars will catch a ban if they do it after receiving a warning. And they only get ONE warning.

Crazy Lowfyr Wildforge
10-12-2002, 06:41 PM
Okay, I'm a cleric. First, my credentials:

Level 60 High Priest, 53 AA points
One of the top ten clerical mana pools on the server (Vazaelle)
Magelo #: 120905

Let me say first, that I soloed before the hammer patch, and I solo after the patch. The Hammer of Judgement is okay, I have The Hammer of Souls, it's a bit better. Not sure about the level 58 spell yet, although I'll get one to play with eventually. Ethereal Remedy is decent, the group elixir is good.

I feel for my fellow clerics, I really do. The changes in class balance probably are screwing them out of groups. Why have a cleric in Velks? Grab a druid, they have DoTs. Grab a shaman, they have Slows.

For myself, I'm the exception: Why? Because I have a reputation for keeping people alive. Because I have the hp/ac/skills to solo. *shrug*


I'm happy that druids got new spells, that's cool... but jeez, guys, is there ever enough with you guys?

Lowfyr Wildforge

Aidon Rufflefuzz
10-17-2002, 08:53 PM
Clerics even started there own club "The Bitter Clerics Club". Which in my opinion is very very funny.

I think that was in response to a certain club led here by Mr. Aidon. Results speak for themselves.

I'm only going to address this one issue, because frankly I'm sick of reiterating the same damned thing to every tom, cleric, and wizard that pops on this board thinking they're saying anything new that I haven't countered 100 times in the past.

Now..back to the above quote:

To clarify, The Bitter Druids are not a "club". We are the militant branch of the Church of PvV (The Venerable Scirocco presiding as Archpriest of PvV). =D

Aamadar LeCambrion
10-18-2002, 03:37 PM
ROFLMAO @ Aidon


Be well and safe all

Aamadar LeCambrion
Templar of Mithaniel
Fennin Ro (Retired)