View Full Forums : I just need to rant. Don't mind me.


Elawnah
09-29-2002, 01:19 AM
I don't know why I bother reading other class boards. Specifically the Cleric and Shaman one. I could be in a somewhat great mood and it slowly leaves as I read page after page after page of what some of these people say. Granted, a Class board shouldn't represent everyone that plays the class, I have friends of all classes that see things diffrently. But anyway

I was reading the Cleric board and it seems to me that they have conviently "left out" the fact that they got 3 new heals BEOFRE we even got our one heal.

It's as though they have completly thrown out any great, new, inventive ideas and they only ask for things from the Druid class out of spite. (Asking for Ensnare, among other things such as SoW and Ports. *laugh*)

They want to be pampered. They apparently want SoW, Ports, Snare, Res, CH, 80bazillion OTHER heals, DS, Moonfire, Wildfire, Tash, C3, Malo, and Slow. :evil:

Well, damn who dosent want ALL of those things. But, it ain't gonna happen.

Read the Shaman board. Apparently, no one has the faintest idea why their heal does 1k less than ours. Do I need to make a flashy 500 x 800 banner for them that says "YOU CAN SLOW" ? Or, perhaps one that says "YOU CAN SLOW AND HASTE" ?

Bah. Bah humbug.

I don't think other classes, especially the core classes, realize that they are the best of the best of the best, and every raid depends on them to be there or it dosen't happen.

Welcome to the end game.

I know my place as a Druid. I enjoy my place as a Druid or I would have switched mains when Velious came out. But to hear people talk you'd think that Druids somehow, are these evil, evil people that have VI wrapped around their finger and VI does whatever we want. Clearly that must be the case, look at all the happy little Druids frolicking about! (*heavy sarcasm applied*)

I just dunno.

I don't think Clerics or Shaman are the "enemy", not by a long shot. I think there are some highly misinformed individuals from those two classes especially, but that could be said about people that share the same class as me, too. That's something I don't deny.

If there is an enemy at all, it would have to be VI. Atleast, in my little opinion.

I would just love to one day, when things are going on, to switch characters with a Cleric for just one day so they can see exactly what it's like, and so perhaps I'd get a better understanding of the problems they have, and they'd have a better understanding of the problems I have.

I can't count the number of times, even AFTER this new heal went live, that all I would see when I zoned into places was "Group looking for a Cleric" or "Group looking for a Cleric and Shaman".

I have seen ONE TIME, yes, ONCE in my entire 2.5 years of playing EQ "Group looking for a Druid".

Does this not tell you ANYTHING?

So anyway, I just needed to rant and get that off my chest. I feel much better now.

FyyrLuStorm
09-29-2002, 07:56 AM
We used to have a long time poster here who was a cleric. Long retired.

Used to give a fairly balanced discussion on cleric things.

Would even shoot the hell out of cleric trolls.

We have a couple newish clerical posters who I enjoy reading from almost as much.

Lady Kasane
09-29-2002, 08:03 AM
I was reading the Cleric board and it seems to me that they have conviently "left out" the fact that they got 3 new heals BEOFRE we even got our one heal.

Those 3 new heals are junk. One of them uses more mana then CH and heals for less. It casts faster, but remedy casts even faster and uses less mana. The remedy upgrade casts a little faster than the old remedy, but is it worth the extra 225 mana? The group heal might not be too bad, but group heals are a waste of mana unless you need to heal at least 4 people at once. They don't get much use except when on raids against mobs that use ae spells. The reason clerics "leave out" the new heals is because they're garbage spells they never asked for, don't need, and will rarely use.

BTW, I noticed that on the druid boards "people convenient left out the fact that" you guys just got a bunch of new ports to Luclin before clerics got those 3 new heals. Neither the ports you got nor those new garbage heals clerics got will help either class get groups, but at least the ports will be used. If Verant removed both from the game tomorrow, clerics wouldn't care.

Gannab
09-29-2002, 08:10 AM
They want to be pampered. They apparently want SoW, Ports, Snare, Res, CH, 80bazillion OTHER heals, DS, Moonfire, Wildfire, Tash, C3, Malo, and Slow.

Funny, ranting clerics say the same about druids. Stereotypes are fun for the whole family!

Kinare
09-29-2002, 10:12 AM
Actually I welcome the new heals. The only reason I even used Divine light before is because it heals a large amount of HP in a short amount of time. It was a patch heal, same with remedy.

I now use all three heals in the right situations. It just depends on what we are facting.

vetoafauna
09-29-2002, 01:03 PM
how can anyone call the most efficient non CH heal, the best hp/second non CH heal, and an MGB/TGBable group HoT garbage? they are pretty major upgrades, all of the clerics use them regularly and consider them hugely better than their old non CH spells. and dont kid yourself, if verant took them away clerics would rightfully throw a fit. the difference between these and the new ports would be that the ports should have been in the game to begin with. it'd be like if no cleric heals worked in SoL zones, and they changed to make them work. the class isn't really gaining power, they're getting back what they had to begin with. the new heals however were flat out upgrades to an existing line, you can say all day that you don't think they are any good, but until the day a cleric uses CH exclusively in all situations, they are still solid upgrades.

vetoafauna
09-29-2002, 01:04 PM
all of the clerics use them regularly and consider them hugely better than their old non CH spells

this should read "all of the clerics i group with use them regularly and consider them hugely better than their old non CH spells"

no edit button, my bad

brum15
09-29-2002, 01:54 PM
actually veto there is one I would use, if I had extra spell buttons /rude verant for not enough spell gems slots. Clerics have so many heals, DA, stun etc but only so many gem slots. That is what makes these new spells more useless. It takes one HOT, CH, remedy(remedy for casters in party who can not wait for CH), rotating buff slot, DA, stun, and now <to keep myself group viable> nuke, That takes 7 slots leaving just one

I myself still find myself keeping one big heal besides CH memmed (useful for those times you have two tanks dropping fast and could only get off one CH at the two bubble mark--cast superior heal or something on one then CH on other since he should be about there by then.

That pretty much means that two of the three spells get promptly memmed and shoved to back of spellbook.

My post name on eqclerics is hakken. My calls are for a group aura that would increase atk, ac, hps, saves and haste of everyone in group. Kind of like a bard song. Remember the old bless spell from D & D. Should stack with everything. That and start the hammer line a little earlier and actually let us take damage on the plate chart instead of the chain table. That would be good help in groups

For soloing I would also like to see 5 or 6 new undead only zones(NO LIVE WANDERING MOBS) added in a new expansion. If you did not want to buy expansion you would not have to. The undead mobs would be highly resistant to any non-undead specific nukes (ie only half damage if not undead specific) If pallies, necros and clerics are undead masters--then why can wizards do more damage to them than us?? Think of the zombie moves you see--bullets, fire etc do not really effect them. Their flesh is already dead and they will not be as effected by the shock of damage as much as a live creature.

ports will be added with POP. I do hate to see you losing this monopoly (shared with wizards of course) but on the other hand am kind of glad. We as a guild tried to mobolize to take down sev last nite for one of our members so she could finish quest. only one of our wizards was on and all of our druids were in groups. So I logged on my druid and myself and the wizard tried to frantically port people in while he is telling us a manaburn team is starting to mobilize. We got about 18 people there and then the manaburn team took her.

That gets frustrating. and our guild has about 1.5 times as many druids as clerics--our guildleader is a druid. She wasnt on--cause bless her soul she would have found a way to be there. We did have 3 clerics free (mine included). Well I guess you could count it as 2 clerics and 1 druid or 3 clerics and 0 druids since I could go either way (no puns here please--talking about my characters heh heh)

I dont want to have my druid and cleric or my paladin and cleric classes merged. enough of that already. If we keep giving verant reason they will soon merge all healers into one. Not arguing against TR--you needed that as you are a healer. but I really dont want snare, quad skills or sow--I want my own unique abilities that let me approximate these in soloing. I DO WANT INVIS. Trust me unstackable potions dont cut it. 10 plat a shot and on CR they are not available. Currently I have 489 plat. That is not a lot of money in the 50+ game. My druid does have about 11K and my pally has about 45K (he soloed the grimling is tenebrous mts for acrylia and serious cash) I guess maybe I roleplay too much though cause I hesitate to transfer cash between them--I have and probably will again cause I would love to get spiritstone and buy more peridots.

OH well rambling time to log CIAO

Talyena Trueheart
09-29-2002, 05:41 PM
Those 3 new heals are junk. One of them uses more mana then CH and heals for less. It casts faster, but remedy casts even faster and uses less mana. The remedy upgrade casts a little faster than the old remedy, but is it worth the extra 225 mana? The group heal might not be too bad, but group heals are a waste of mana unless you need to heal at least 4 people at once. They don't get much use except when on raids against mobs that use ae spells. The reason clerics "leave out" the new heals is because they're garbage spells they never asked for, don't need, and will rarely use.

BTW, I noticed that on the druid boards "people convenient left out the fact that" you guys just got a bunch of new ports to Luclin before clerics got those 3 new heals. Neither the ports you got nor those new garbage heals clerics got will help either class get groups, but at least the ports will be used. If Verant removed both from the game tomorrow, clerics wouldn't care.

BS. Two of those three heals are quite spectacular and are often used by many clerics I know including my sister. Either you are playing us for fools or are one yourself.

actually veto there is one I would use, if I had extra spell buttons /rude verant for not enough spell gems slots.

Bah, the new remedy actually frees up a spell slot for the clerics I have talked to. Need a DL sized spell? Got it covered. Need a fast heal with good range? Got it covered. It is larger than dl or nt, and faster than remedy or cb. It is an awsome spell that covers many bases all in one spell slot. As for the group heal, it is situational, but in the situations you need it (like the ae mobs in CT), it is an excelent spell.

Now, it is funny that you should bring up spell slots. The argument I see most often made by clerics is why someone would want them when they can get a druid who can heal, snare, nuke, dot, hp buff, debuff, ds, strength buff, invis, eb, lev, see invis, port, wolf form, and evac, all with no concideration that we only have eight spell slots too. :)

brum15
09-29-2002, 08:36 PM
aye

you will have no argument from me there on you guys being limited on spell slots also tal. My druid would love about 2-3 more slots also.


say it with me /rude verant on limited spell slots

you will feel better

brum15
09-29-2002, 08:51 PM
BTW had a great time today in kael. went to the icehouse with another cleric who was level 56, level 58 druid, 54 shammy, 52 paladin and myself level 50 cleric. Both clerics and paladin meleed. Druid healed and a wonderful time was had by all. I will say I loved the druid spell. Kept us healed right up and that was probably the most fun I have had for a long time. You guys have needed that. Now if you can just get some of your other heals (like Superior heal and NT) pushed down a few levels.

Other cleric had hammer and I had dark ember. My melee damage was more than him (for some reason my hits and bash landed better--will have to check his skill level in 1h bash) but overall his procs made a difference on some. We did have a couple fights where he would only get one or two procs though--pretty sure even with that he outdamaged me but with 6 levels not incredibly so. Got a guild raid coming up and will be interesting to see how the level 60s do with their hammers.

BTW I have posted it here before but will post my characters and levels again. I know some will tend to dismiss me because of levels, but I have actually read all the spells and our guild does have a great mentor system so I actually do stay well informed of what is going on.

Hakken 50 cleric (just dinged woohoo)
Allysa 49 druid
Kirnak 46 Paladin
Dalthenei 53 mage


all above on bertoxxulous server

plus 34 high elf wiz on sullon zek and 46 chanter on antonious bayle that I inherited and am still trying to learn to play.

BTW any Forgotten Alliance druids out there? Rethern dinged 60 WOOOT. We got the greatest druids in the world in my guild.

Lady Kasane
09-29-2002, 09:33 PM
You know Talyena, before you call a cleric a "fool" for not considering these spells the wonderful upgrades to their class that YOU think they are, maybe you should level a cleric to 60 yourself. I see Veto also thinks they're great upgrades. You and Veto have both proven yourself to be anti-cleric in many threads on this board, so your opinion of the value of these spells is meaningless to me.

Since neither of you understood what I originally posted, maybe I should try to give you an example. Let's take Ethereal Light, which is the least valuable of the 3 new garbage spells we got.
1.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Complete heal uses 400 mana. That makes it the best spell clerics get. The only problem is that it takes 10 seconds to cast.
2.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Remedy only takes 3 seconds to cast, at the low cost of 175 mana. But it heals for less than 500hp.
3.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp The new spell Ethereal Light heals 1600hp in 4.75 seconds at a cost of 525 mana. Why would a cleric use that? If I need to heal a lot of hp, I'll use CH for 400 mana and a bigger heal. If I need to heal fast, I'll use the 3 second Remedy. (Or even the 4.5 second DL.) One Remedy + One CH will heal the tank to full, heal faster than EL, and only costs an extra 50 mana. If I want to throw out a heal between pulls, I certainly wouldn't use something that uses more mana than CH when I have so many other heals at my disposal. Even DL is better than it's upgrade because it casts faster and uses less mana.

Now since you druids know more about a cleric's job than we do, I'd like you to explain how wonderful this EL spell is again. Or maybe you think Verant should give you some brand new DoTs that are less mana efficient than the ones you have now?

brum15
09-29-2002, 09:46 PM
We have actually been having some good discussions without getting heated. We have a chance to educate each other and learn a little about how the other class works, lets not blow it.

Lady Kasane, I understand your point but you need to realize that because of a lack of HOT and CH druids dont cast healing the same way we do. Even at 50 as a cleric I have realized the difference in the two types of healers. Clerics will throw on a small quick heal and then move on to CH( so the smaller the mana used the better). Our most effective mana use will always be to throw on something quick til we can use CH. Druids are looking at efficiency from a different point of view. For druids EL would be great. For us it was a wasted few points cause the CH would have healed those points anyway.

You both need to try to understand if from the others point of view. As a cleric we will cast the quick spell using the least mana and follow it up with CH. As a druid the efficiency of EL is great cause they dont have CH and will get use out of the extra ticks of EL.

For the cleric it was not that big of an upgrade and will not really be memmed. For the druids it would have been a huge upgrade.

Lady Kasane
09-29-2002, 09:54 PM
Now that I think of it, what Verant SHOULD have done is given clerics EL with the casting time of ER and the mana cost of DL (or less). That would have been an upgrade! It would have allowed clerics to devote less spell slots to heals (instead of more).

(Not as good of an upgrade as druids just got, but at least an upgrade.)

Racmoor
09-30-2002, 06:06 AM
I guess you've never fought dragons that fear. In case you haven't. FEAR INTERRUPTS SPELLS.

a 1600 quick heal is much better than a 428 quick heal.

Let's see. Heal 428 in 3 secs or 1600 in 4.5secs?

BTW, I play a cleric also.

Racmoor

vetoafauna
09-30-2002, 06:19 AM
see Veto also thinks they're great upgrades. You and Veto have both proven yourself to be anti- cleric in many threads on this board, so your opinion of the value of these spells is meaningless to me

consider the posibility that i'm not anti cleric, but perhaps anti ignorance. you have absolutely no idea how these spells work, what it's like to heal someone with more than 3k hp, or the value of hp/second. i'm no cleric, but i fight with them every day, and they are getting good use out of these spells. i haven't seen one of our clerics cast remedy or DL even once since these spells were added. your problem is, that you're focusing on the mana costs, which to you at your level seem astronomic, and not considering the hp/second of these spells when complete heal is too slow to use. value my opinion or not, when you get these spells you'd be a damn fool to not use them.

Lady Kasane
09-30-2002, 09:59 AM
You're right Brum. This would be a good spell from a druid point of view---if it was a druid spell. But it's not a druid spell. It's a cleric spell. And to clerics, it's junk. Telling clerics that getting this spell is a wonderful upgrade would be like giving druids a powerful self-only dex buff and telling them not to complain about giving their ports away to rangers because they just got a wonderful upgrade. A self-only dex buff would be great for rangers! But to druids it would be junk, because it would get very little use.



Racmoor, there are certain situations these spells would get used, but not that many. (Especially for EL.) Now if they would have combined them as I suggested above, it could have been a good spell. As it is, it's not much better than an upgrade to "summon food".

So why do I say they're "junk" instead of saying they're ok, but not really needed? Because I would much rather that Verant gave the cleric class a spell that will get more use. There's going to be a limit to how many new spells and other upgrades Verant will give each class. These are junk spells because they take the place of something that might have been good.

Lady Kasane
09-30-2002, 10:01 AM
As for Vetoafauna...

consider the posibility that i'm not anti cleric, but perhaps anti ignorance. you have absolutely no idea how these spells work, what it's like to heal someone with more than 3k hp, or the value of hp/second.

Enough personal attacks in there Veto? Calling me ignorant? A druid is telling a cleric that they have "absolutely no idea how these spells work" or "what it's like to heal someone with more than 3k hp"? Where do you get the arrogance to think that you can tell a cleric that they don't know anything about clerical healing? Those are outright, blatant personal attacks on somebody's knowledge of and ability to play their own class. But then again, that's nothing new for you. You seem to make a hobby out of personal attacks, even in the non-rant forum. (I suppose the "do not attack another on a Personal Level!" statement at the top of this forum does not apply to druids like yourself attacking members of other classes.)

I'll tell you what. There's an excellent essay on clerical healing at pub8.ezboard.com/fclerics...=64.topic. (http://pub8.ezboard.com/fclericsofhate91157general.showMessage?topicID=64. topic.) There was some interesting discussions and debates following this on other boards as well, but they're more active message boards and so the essay is lost from them. Read that essay it. Study it. Know what you're talking about. Then maybe you'll be able to contribute something a little more valuable to a discussion on the value of these heals to a another class that you don't even play.

Talyena Trueheart
09-30-2002, 10:13 AM
Enough personal attacks in there Veto? Calling me ignorant? A druid is telling a cleric that they have "absolutely no idea how these spells work" or "what it's like to heal someone with more than 3k hp"?

I don't think he called you ignorant in the use of CH. I think he called you ignorant because your opinion of a 1023hp heal with a 2.75 cast time and one of the most efficient group heals in the game is they are "junk."

So tell me, do you even have ER yet? And if so, do you keep it memmed full time? And if not, why?

chenier
09-30-2002, 11:14 AM
I really like red bell peppers - they're so perky.

Aenia1
09-30-2002, 11:42 AM
Prior to the new heals I kept CHeal, Divine Light and Celestial Elixir mem'd. The only new heal we got that will be used by most clerics regularly is Ethereal Remedy, I used it to replace DL in my lineup. For clerics who kept the spells I mentioned above mem'd along with Remedy, ER was even better because it opens up a spell slot (no need for DL and Remedy both really if you have ER).

If you count these new heals, our pet (which people don't seem to realize we've always had this pet, it was just 600 mana so never got used), and hammer/yaulp as upgrades for clerics, then you must also take into account DoT stacking, Luclin ports and the new heal as upgrades to druids.

Everyone has to at least be able to agree that both classes have received a good number of "additions" over the last month or so. Are we balanced? I think probably not and I hope they have more ideas up their sleeves.

vetoafauna
09-30-2002, 12:03 PM
I don't think he called you ignorant in the use of CH. I think he called you ignorant because your opinion of a 1023hp heal with a 2.75 cast time and one of the most efficient group heals in the game is they are "junk."

So tell me, do you even have ER yet? And if so, do you keep it memmed full time? And if not, why?

Tal hit the nail on the head. i said your referance to these three new heals being garbage was ignorant, and i'll hold my ground on that. i'm not a cleric, and for this reason nearly every group i join has a cleric in it. i have teamed with many more clerics than you have and have a pretty good idea of what people that can actually cast these spells, unlike you kasane, actually think of them. they are three solid upgrades, only one of them may really be a full time spell, but nonetheless they are far from trash.

brum15
09-30-2002, 12:12 PM
Thank you Aenia1.

Informative but non personal. Trust me guys (and girls). We are all playing this game for fun. You dont know who that anon cleric/druid is out there you have let verant pit you against. It may be a cousin, friend, brother, sister or parent. Think of the people in your guild. I know the druids in my guild are super people so I can only assume that they are not the exception. the people on the other end of the computer are just like you. I know this sounds corny but treat them how you would like them to treat you.

I have no problem with druids getting better heal--heck superior heal needs moved down. This made the game fun for them. Soloing is something that should be done and be able to be done to get exp when you can only sign on for a couple of hours. End game is about raiding and soloing just gives you the exp to do that.

Quit complaining about them getting heal. What we need to do is to help them realize that us getting solo abilities and utility is not a bad thing. It would make the game fun for us.

meysura
09-30-2002, 09:00 PM
Amen brum15.

I have *no* problem with clerics getting utility spells and soloing ability whatsoever. Heck, I wholeheartedly support it. Every class should have the ability to solo because all of us (well, nearly all of us) will have times we can only play a few hours and don't have time to go LFG. I *do* think there are some misconceptions out there among other (non-druid) classes about just how efficiently we druids can solo of course (at 55 with no KEI, 2 blues on a bar of mana rooting and rotting is par and that's not all that great considering how long I sit on my butt medding up afterwards ~ soloing is not always the huge exp gain some people want to make it out to be ~ frankly, I get better exp in a decent exp group unless I get lucky on a quad spot.) Anyhow, you won't hear me bashing utility/soling spells for clerics. Now if they'd just stop bashing grouping spells for me, we'd be cool...

meysura
55 druid, nameless
more or less retired

Lady Kasane
09-30-2002, 10:36 PM
No I don't have ER yet Talyena. I would mem that one, but probably not full time. I'll use it in certain situations. As I stated in my first post on this thread, "It casts a little faster than the old remedy, but is it worth the extra 225 mana?" In some situations, it would be worth that extra mana cost. In others it would not. The heavy mana cost would slow down pulls if used in most standard experience groups. But I will probably never mem EL, and if I do it would be used very rarely. My reason is because the mana cost is too high and would slow down pulls. I'm not alone in this opinion. If you read the cleric boards you'll see that a lot of clerics feel the same way, including those that do have the spell.

And Veto didn't just call me ignorant for not falling in love with these spells. He had the gall to say that I "have absolutely no idea how these spells work, what it's like to heal someone with more than 3k hp, or the value of hp/second." In other words, he said that I don't know my class and have no right to an opinion of the value of the spells we get (and he does). Veto's made a lot of personal attacks on me before, so don't think this attack is related only to my opinion of these spells. Veto just loves to attack anybody that he disagrees with.

(Ask yourself if you would be so quick to defend him if he were a cleric telling a druid they don't know how to play their class. No need to answer that question. Just ask it to yourself and consider the thought.)

Vamenea
10-01-2002, 12:21 AM
I was reading the Cleric board and it seems to me that they have conviently "left out" the fact that they got 3 new heals BEOFRE we even got our one heal.


What you mean the three new heals that on ethics I havent bothered to buy due to the fact that every raid mob tagged mob and exp mob in game had been killed so I didnt see the reason why clerics needed new heals.


They want to be pampered. They apparently want SoW, Ports, Snare, Res, CH, 80bazillion OTHER heals, DS, Moonfire, Wildfire, Tash, C3, Malo, and Slow.



Funny that, I get the same impression visitng here and reading what druids have to say about their class.. it works both ways believe me.

Islington
10-01-2002, 04:21 AM
Level 60 Cleric. Ethereal Light is junk to me. I have it, I keep it memmed, and I do cast it on occassion. However, I can't think of a single time where the spell was appropriate. There are three major factors with Ethereal Light that, taken together, makes the spell worthless.

1. Cast Time. Even with Spell Haste, the spell takes awhile to cast.

2. Amount of HP Healed compared to our other heals.

3. Mana usage. This spell is a Mana hog.

Taken together, the spell is worthless. It takes too long to cast for the hitpoints it heals and wastes a ton of mana doing so. Ratio? I might be a decent mana to hitpoint ratio but with our other heals, I couldn't care less about Ratio since this spell takes more mana than Complete Heal (there I said it). Basically, there is never a reason to use this spell. If they need a lot of HP returned, I use Complete Heal. If they need a fast patch heal, I use Ethereal Remedy. Pointing this spell with mana usage higher than Complete Heal made it so that this spell is, generally, worthless.

Ethereal Remedy? Love this spell and I use it all the time. It fully replaced Divine Light as my full time patch heal. Mana usage is on the high side, but as I said before, I couldn't care less about Ratios. The spell is fast casting and heals for a good bit. The range on the spell is also a win.

Ethereal Elixer? I won't call this worthless but it does come close. It DOES have uses but they are few and far between. Simply put, it costs too much mana to cast for the amount of healing returned. Why do I say this? Because Group Complete Heal only costs slightly more and is just that, a Group Complete Heal. Everytime I went in loaded with Group Elixer, I found myself LOM when using it and would, inevitably, swap it out for the much more mana efficient Group CH. However, it does have uses since it generates almost no aggro and is good as a fire and forget heal. Cast it and that's about 24 seconds of healing for your whole group. Generally though, I'll use Group CH 19 times out of 20.

My final point on the new heals is this. STOP LOOKING AT THE RATIOS! While the numbers don't lie, they also don't tell you the whole story. There are many reasons that Clerics don't like some of our new heals and they are valid. Taken along with many other factors (other spells, mana usage, casting time, hitpoints returned etc.) there are a number of reasons we feel that some of these new heals are not that good.

vetoafauna
10-01-2002, 06:16 AM
And Veto didn't just call me ignorant for not falling in love with these spells. He had the gall to say that I "have absolutely no idea how these spells work, what it's like to heal someone with more than 3k hp, or the value of hp/second." In other words, he said that I don't know my class and have no right to an opinion of the value of the spells we get (and he does). Veto's made a lot of personal attacks on me before, so don't think this attack is related only to my opinion of these spells. Veto just loves to attack anybody that he disagrees with.

how is it a personal attack stating that you simply don't know how these spells work because you havent used them and couldn't have much experience grouping with people that use them? it's a fact, once you start grinding in zones where higher hp heals are needed (ssra, CT, etc) and you have experience using these spells, when you're fighting with 7-8k hp tanks, your opinion on the subject will hold alot more water. it's not about what class you play, because until you've played that class at the calibur of game where these spells are used, it doesn't matter. lastly, shut up about the whole personal attack crap, stop being a hypocrite. if im not mistaken, you singled me out in this thread first and called me a cleric hater.

vetoafauna
10-01-2002, 06:20 AM
"They want to be pampered. They apparently want SoW, Ports, Snare, Res, CH, 80bazillion OTHER heals, DS, Moonfire, Wildfire, Tash, C3, Malo, and Slow.

Funny that, I get the same impression visitng here and reading what druids have to say about their class.. it works both ways believe me.

the difference is, most of the things druids ask for here, and ALL of the things we've asked verant for, are already part of the druid class.

Lady Kasane
10-01-2002, 08:48 AM
There are some people who don't care if they play their class well as long as they get loot. To those people, an accusation that they don't know how to play their class may seem like no big deal. But most people, especially those who read message boards and spoiler sites, DO put a lot of time into learning their class and take pride in their ability to play it. Telling them they don't know how to play their class is a major insult. Anybody who takes pride in their ability to play their class would recognize this as a personal attack.

Calling somebody anti-cleric or anti-druid is an entirely different matter. Does it hurt your pride to be considered anti-cleric? If yes, then tell me why it does so I can understand.

A Republican doctor may be insulted if you said attacked his medical skills, but I don't think he'd get that upset about being called "anti-Democrat".

Moreover, you're not a cleric yourself, you have no basis to assume that I don't know how to play my class. However, I do have basis to assume that you are anti-cleric because I've read posts where you expressed your views, and many of those views seem anti-cleric.

I don't feel like searching through this board for posts by you, but one example can be found on page 5 of the "There are THREE MAIN Healing Classes in This Game!" thread at (pub13.ezboard.com/fthedru...stop=100). (http://pub13.ezboard.com/fthedruidsgrovegeneral.showMessageRange?topicID=28 548.topic&start=81&stop=100).) Here you make comments like "Clerics don't deserve something new" and "hypocrits who whine about not being able to solo." (BTW, since when is smite is a class defining ability for clerics?)

Lady Kasane
10-01-2002, 09:11 AM
the difference is, most of the things druids ask for here, and ALL of the things we've asked verant for, are already part of the druid class.

Druids have asked for improved nukes, improved DoTs, improved heals, improved pet, and more ports. These are things that can be considered "already part of the druid class".

However, that does not apply to "ALL of the things" druids have asked for. Many druids have asked for CH. Not just what they got, but a full CH. You said yourself that, "CH would, infact, balance druids at this point." (pub13.ezboard.com/fthedru...1&stop=20) (http://pub13.ezboard.com/fthedruidsgrovegeneral.showMessageRange?topicID=28 457.topic&start=1&stop=20)) I've also seen druids asking for other things like rez, TLs, and manaburn.

(BTW, it was druids on this very message board that first suggested that clerics should ask for things like snare. Some even said they wouldn't mind if clerics got ports.)

Teaenea
10-01-2002, 10:29 AM
Druids have asked for improved nukes, improved DoTs, improved heals, improved pet, and more ports. These are things that can be considered "already part of the druid class".

However, that does not apply to "ALL of the things" druids have asked for. Many druids have asked for CH. Not just what they got, but a full CH. You said yourself that, "CH would, infact, balance druids at this point." (pub13.ezboard.com/fthedru...1&stop=20) I've also seen druids asking for other things like rez, TLs, and manaburn.


First, the vast majority of druids do not want rez, TL, or Manaburn. There are always a few ask for the outrageous.

Second, Like it or not. CH is, above all things, a direct healing spell. Direct healing spells are something that druids have had since level one. Also, TR is closer to a 10 second 3k heal than a complete heal. People are too fixated on it being a complete heal.

vetoafauna
10-01-2002, 11:36 AM
what i said was, "it's not about what class you play, because until you've played that class at the calibur of game where these spells are used" and incase you cant make the connection, i never said you don't know anything about being a cleric. however, i did say you know nothing about endgame eq... call that a personal attack, call it whatever, but i've only formed my opinion of you based off of the things you've said on this board. you probably do just fine as a cleric, but your limited eq experience does hurt the validity of opinion on the subject, at least in my opinion. that said, until you've fought against mobs that 60s fight against, how you value the spells isn't really anything but a guess, based on the numbers. and, the numbers show in favor of them being upgrades. i'm not a cleric, but im a healer, so i havent used these spells but seeing them through a comparative pov. you're a cleric, but also with no experience with these spells or the mobs they're used against. disagree but have very different povs. whatever. i dont even care to argue with you anymore.

but, druids wanting rez and all that, take a look a look at the "state of the druid" petition. there may be some crazy people saying crazy things, but the druid community has never asked for anything but upgrades to our current spells

brum15
10-01-2002, 01:43 PM
The problem is not with druids getting upgrades in all their areas. It is that clerics only have one area to get an upgrade in, or two counting buffs. So what to do? Since we only have one area that can get upgraded make it 5 times as powerful? Give us a heal for 20K maybe combine that with a buff that gives 6K hps? now that would be a game breaker

Clerics need to branch out. I am sorry but if they were choosing the hammer as the way to expand our class they needed to leave it completely unnerfed. For druids to get upgrades in 5 different areas is appropriate cause you do have that many different areas. To limit clerics to just an upgrade in the healing area is why clerics are complaining.

The reason clerics are asking for upgrades outside of their area is because unlike druids we only have the two areas. trust me if they just up us in those areas your healing would become more inefficient, because all of a sudden our buffs would give tanks more hps that only our CH could hope to heal. It is in your interest for balance and our interest for fun that the way verant goes in increasing our group utility is not with greater hp buffs combined with greater heals.

If they increase our melee--paladins have a fit. I mean melee is part of our portfolio--or so I thought--didnt take much bitching by pallies to get us nerfed back to hell. So much for expanding that area of our class. I do like the yaulp 5 idea now if only melee did more damage than nuke and sit, we would use it. Maybe even shorten our nuke casting time while meleeing so we dont have to interrupt melee while casting.

Increase our damage vs undead--paladins and necros have a fit. Yet clerics should be the master at killing undead (combining melee and nukes) necros charm them and pallys melee but for all out just killing them when combining nukes and melee, clerics should be untouchable as undead killers. But no way will we get that with pallies and necros screaming unfair every time we look at an improvement there. Plus there just are not enough undead only zones. So much for expanding the undead nukes of our class.

Everyone wants to shove clerics into this little hole where all they are suppose to do is heal. But dont worry, you do it just a little better than anyone else so when we get ready to do a raid where we actually need that overabundance of healing power we will come get you. Til then be content to just sit there cause you are not needed for groups cause you dont contribute enough and are totally inefficient at soloing.

Heck the faithstones they tried to give to the other two healer classes are now a major area of contention cause every hybrid is claiming they should get to use them too, cause they are just as fervently religious as us.

Give clerics some more areas to expand in. Sorry that we are asking for expansion in areas outside of our accepted class(well what everyone wants to be our only area). No more one trick pony here. Open up some playing styles for us. And no dont give us other class skills. New unique ones. There have been some great ideas on EQclerics. Aura effects that add to party atk, ac, hps, saves. Special diety spell effects like unbreakable roots for brell followers, nearly unresistable fear for CZ followers, etc. Or special undead zones where only undead nukes work to full effect(kind of like D&D did with the masque of red death books and the special undead realm--sorry cant remember the name.

Fact is like it or not clerics are currently broke in the solo area--excepting some uber level 60s. Yes we can solo but the efficiency does not even make it worth the time it would take to get somewhere. Time would better be spend logging and playing pong. Branch us out. Give us some versatility.

Tried to gather some faction in Kael the other day and we got trained at first bridge. While we were rezzing at zone in I watched one of our level 58 clerics and one of our 54 paladins simultaneously take on two different giants. Pallly wiped floor with his. I wound up having to heal our cleric. He was using pet, nuke, root, stun, hammer and melee. Problem was when he stepped back to heal--pet would die and for some reason giant was resisting all roots. Even had myself and 2 druids casting roots to try and help--in all the giant resisted about 19 roots-what is up with that? Pally finally stepped in and killed the other one also. He finally admitted clerics were broke.

We dont want your specific spells. We want some kind of unique abilities besides healing to make our class fun. And no nerfed hammer and pet equal to booboo dont count. Our pet is a dot--no more.

We dont want you to lose group power heals--heck you will need an upgrade for POP--we want some group utility and solo ability--unique ones--fun ones.

I mean think. If they dont expand us outside of the healing and buffing roles and expand you in 6 different areas, then the only way to make the expansions fair is to expand our heal and buff both 3 times as much as they expand yours. And we are right back where we started--with your healing broke. Better for all if they found 4 different equal ways to expand us. So we each had 6 ways of getting expanded and then they could expand all abilities equally.

Heck, end of a 12 hour shift here so I am not sure if this is even making sense.

Oh well. May Brell bless all you tree huggers.

vetoafauna
10-01-2002, 02:19 PM
i hate to say it but asking for something unique, as a cleric, druid, or anything else, is pretty much futile. too much content is based around what we have to work with now, anything truly new would unbalance it. with PoP verant had their chance to fix this. they could have made things stack better, let druid and cleric hp buffs stack for instance, or a unique stacking debuff for a class that doesn't really offer anything of their own, and balanced the mobs to include this. but, they have missed their window of opprotunity. anyhow, increasing clerics versitality without making shaman/druid healing equal to that of a clerics would upset alot of people, even with shaman/druid healing as it is now. why? its the price they pay for being the "best" at something. now don't get me wrong, i'm all for clerics being made better nukers/stunners/attack buffers/whatever, but i still feel that if this should happen, druid and (maybe) shamans should get complete heal. what would that solve? it would give all priests an equal level of healing value so their other abilities can be compared without having to factor in the value of being the best healer.

balancing priests would be absolutely so much easier. alot would change though, probably too much for most people to adapt to. on raids alot of the time it'd be druids and shamans in CH rotations and clerics would be doing the patch healing (see ethereals). groupability wouldnt really change much, in most grind zones TR is sufficient anyway. all priests would have pretty equal value if clerics got a bump in dps.

solo is where the real difference would be though, shamans and druids would remain unchanged but clerics would have to be vastly improved. give them undead charms and dire charm as an aa skill, or a blind spell that also snares so they could actually kite.. and remove the recast time on nukes. let their summoned pets not poof when the target dies, and give them more hp. perhaps yaulp6, with 80% haste and 150 attack, 3 minute duration but 6 minute repop time.... and buffs that would let them augment regular weapons to proc the magic dd. make so the dd doesnt break root, and add a stun component. of course, make so the stun can be resisted but the dd still lands. just keep jacking up their soloability until its on par with shaman or druid.

really, groups are the grey area. i think most of the cleric community has no problem with druids being able to heal exceptionally well on raids, and most of the druid community has no problem with clerics being able to solo as well as they do. groups however, if a cleric gets more dps or versitality then druids are back at square one, and if druids are able to heal as well as a cleric in a grind group then clerics go ape****. whats the solution? i can think of two things: impliment raid exp in a hurry (and make it good enough to be the prefered means of exp gain), or make grind mobs significantly harder so a group may actually need two priests to keep them up. there are too many priests now, i've seen clerics sit for hours lfg and it isn't cause of druids taking their spots, its cause every damn group already has a cleric.

brum15
10-01-2002, 02:27 PM
Man I love both of your last suggestions veto. Now if only verant would listen.

Vamenea
10-01-2002, 04:17 PM
First, the vast majority of druids do not want rez, TL, or Manaburn. There are always a few ask for the outrageous.


Same thing could be said for the cleric community you mentioned us asking for ports.

Ive probaly one seen maybe one or two people seriously (as in not just asking to spite druids that visit eqclerics or as a joke) that really want them.

Or are you allowed to generalize the cleric community wish's? one clerics ask all clerics ask line of thinking?

Lady Kasane
10-01-2002, 07:13 PM
First, the vast majority of druids do not want rez, TL, or Manaburn. There are always a few ask for the outrageous.

True. But you need to consider the context that statement was made in. It is in reference to a statement clerics want "SoW, Ports, Snare, Res, CH, 80bazillion OTHER heals, DS, Moonfire, Wildfire, Tash, C3, Malo, and Slow."

The vast majority of clerics did not ask for any of the spells on that list they don't already have either (except undead snare and undead slow). In fact, I haven't even heard most of them mentioned by clerics as things they want. (To be honest, I figured the original poster may have been making some of that stuff up.)

In other words, the context is in reference to things that clerics have supposedly asked for. My reply was in reference to a few of the things that I've seen druids have asked for. This is not a discussion of what the majority of druids or clerics want, just what people have been asking for.

Lady Kasane
10-01-2002, 07:39 PM
what i said was, "it's not about what class you play, because until you've played that class at the calibur of game where these spells are used"

Sorry Veto, you didn't say that until *after* I called you out on the personal attacks.

And you of all people should remember that I'm 54. (If nothing else, you should at least remember that I do a lot of hunting in Sebilis.) I find it very arrogant and uber elitist of you to refer to anybody with a 50+ character as having "limited eq experience" and to say that I've never "fought against mobs that 60s fight against".

vetoafauna
10-01-2002, 08:50 PM
Sorry Veto, you didn't say that until *after* I called you out on the personal attacks.

calling me on what? quit beating this dead horse, i told you exactly what i meant and if you choose to take that as a personal attack, so be it.

And you of all people should remember that I'm 54. (If nothing else, you should at least remember that I do a lot of hunting in Sebilis.) I find it very arrogant and uber elitist of you to refer to anybody with a 50+ character as having "limited eq experience" and to say that I've never "fought against mobs that 60s fight against".

i thought the same thing at 54. but, the 54 game is closer to the level 20 game than it is to 60. i guess this is just one of those things that you'll have to find out on your own.

vetoafauna
10-01-2002, 09:13 PM
I don't feel like searching through this board for posts by you, but one example can be found on page 5 of the "There are THREE MAIN Healing Classes in This Game!" thread at (pub13.ezboard.com/fthedru...stop=100). Here you make comments like "Clerics don't deserve something new" and "hypocrits who whine about not being able to solo." (BTW, since when is smite is a class defining ability for clerics?)

HAHAHAHAHA... anyone want a good laugh, read my post she linked to and pick out where i said the things she quoted me on. sorry kasane, i could weed through your posts and pick out of a series of words that in no way represent the context in which they were used and try to pass them off as quotes, but i'm above that.

Lady Kasane
10-01-2002, 11:14 PM
Beating a dead horse Veto? You're beating it just as much as I am.

You're the one who absolutely refuses to admit that comments you made may be insulting to others. If I had been in your shoes, I would have apologized and said that I did not think you would take my remarks as insulting, explained why I didn't consider them insulting, or confess that they were meant as an attack. You've stubbornly insisted they are not personal attacks, told me to "shut up", and tried to legitimize your attacks with further comments that a lvl 54 cleric should not know as much about the new cleric spells as a lvl 60 druid.

Those further comments are often insults in themselves. You insist that I have no experience healing anyone over 3k hp, that I have never grouped with tanks that have 7-8k hp, and that I have "limited eq experience" (because I'm only 54). And let's not forget your latest insult, "the 54 game is closer to the level 20 game than it is to 60." I find your uber elitist attitude extremely insulting. If it wasn't for the fact that Druid's Grove is a forum where druids all support each other in arguments with members of other classes regardless of what they say, I would think a lot of druids that are 54 or lower would be offended as well. But you can get away with comments like that here because you're an uber lvl 60 druid and I'm a cleric.

(And you're right. People should read that post. It exhibits an obvious jeolousy of clerics coupled with an underlying hostility towards the cleric class.)

vetoafauna
10-02-2002, 06:43 AM
Beating a dead horse Veto? You're beating it just as much as I am.

no, i think your going on about how i'm a cleric hater and love to personally attack anyone that disagrees with me was beating a dead horse to begin with. i tried to reason with you, and defend myself.

You're the one who absolutely refuses to admit that comments you made may be insulting to others.

My comments were directed at you and nobody else, because you had displayed ignorance about high end eq. this is akin to a professional carpenter telling the high school kid rookie that he doesn't know how to build a house. if you want to get hostile about it, do that on your own watch.

If I had been in your shoes, I would have apologized and said that I did not think you would take my remarks as insulting, explained why I didn't consider them insulting, or confess that they were meant as an attack.

Here comes the irony bus. That's about the complete opposite of what you did when i said your "cleric hater" comment was a personal attack.

You've stubbornly insisted they are not personal attacks, told me to "shut up", and tried to legitimize your attacks with further comments that a lvl 54 cleric should not know as much about the new cleric spells as a lvl 60 druid.

Manipulative ever? What i said is what i meant, furthermore i love when you quote half of a sentence taken out of context.

Those further comments are often insults in themselves. You insist that I have no experience healing anyone over 3k hp, that I have never grouped with tanks that have 7-8k hp, and that I have "limited eq experience" (because I'm only 54). And let's not forget your latest insult, "the 54 game is closer to the level 20 game than it is to 60." I find your uber elitist attitude extremely insulting. If it wasn't for the fact that Druid's Grove is a forum where druids all support each other in arguments with members of other classes regardless of what they say, I would think a lot of druids that are 54 or lower would be offended as well.

I think you knew that was bull**** when you typed it. Ever seen a lower level druid come here and criticize higher level druids and the way they use their spells? usually their posts get moved/locked after people jump on their @#%$ for lack of game experience. guess what, there's more to the game than sebilis whether you want to recognize it or not.

But you can get away with comments like that here because you're an uber lvl 60 druid and I'm a cleric.

pity yourself some more will you please? i don't exactly see every cleric that reads this board jumping to your defense.

(And you're right. People should read that post. It exhibits an obvious jeolousy of clerics coupled with an underlying hostility towards the cleric class.)

i bet you translated the rosetta stone too.

vetoafauna
10-02-2002, 06:45 AM
sorry no edit button, i forgot to mention... this is my last reply to you. so, go ahead and get your last word for good measure.

Elawnah
10-02-2002, 07:02 AM
I should have known better than to say anything at all. It would get picked apart by the 5 clerics that post here, and most likley cross-linked back to their board, along with a post that says how whiney druids are, etc etc etc. Probably, most ironically next to a thread that says "CLERICS ARE BROKEN WE NEED PORTS" or somesuch. Or perhaps random half-quotes taken completly out of context saying something akin to "NOW THEY WANT RES" when in fact, no one said anything about it at all. And if they had, they were most likley being sarcastic.

The joy of arguing on the internet.

Kinare
10-02-2002, 08:04 AM
OMG elawnah... Internet is supposed to be capitalized.

Lady Kasane
10-04-2002, 03:40 AM
go ahead and get your last word for good measure.

Thank you for the invite. I believe I'll take you up on that.

this is akin to a professional carpenter telling the high school kid rookie that he doesn't know how to build a house.

This is actually more akin to a lvl 60 carpenter telling a lvl 54 plumber that they don't know anything about plumbing.
"If I had been in your shoes, I would have apologized and said that I did not think you would take my remarks as insulting, explained why I didn't consider them insulting, or confess that they were meant as an attack."

Here comes the irony bus. That's about the complete opposite of what you did when i said your "cleric hater" comment was a personal attack.

Don't lie. I did do one of the 3 things I stated above--"explained why I didn't consider them insulting". I even invited you to explain why you thought being called anti-cleric was a blow to your pride. (You didn't do that though, so I can only assume that it wasn't.)


Ever seen a lower level druid come here and criticize higher level druids and the way they use their spells?

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. The subject here is a lvl 60 druid calling a lvl 54 cleric ignorant for supposedly knowing less about their own class than the druid because the druid is 6 levels higher.

Lady Kasane
10-04-2002, 03:46 AM
I've had enough of you Veto. My desire to flame you can no longer be subdued. Apologies in advance, but I really need to get this off my chest.

You really piss me off Veto. My impression of you from reading your posts is that you're probably some selfish, spoiled, immature high school kid that thinks you should be worshipped like a god in EQ because of you have a lvl 60 character. You might even use EQ to feed an inferiority complex from lack of power in rl. You're extremely rude and appear to have little respect for people that are lower level than you, unless you share a common cause. You also don't impress me as being that intelligent. It's people like you that are turning me into a druid hater. I will confess in advance that these are meant to be personal attacks, but I don't take them back because I believe you deserve them.

Kahlia Girlie
10-04-2002, 07:01 AM
Too lazy to read all three pages of this, so if someone covered this already, /ignore me.

What exactly is your experience in the end game, Lady Kasane? Remedy is a completely worthless spell to any serious raiding cleric. Our chanters break 4k hp and our warriors are toeing the 8k mark. What exactly is Remedy gonna do? What is DL gonna do? They are drops of water in a bucket.

Yes, the new heals have high mana costs, but the ratio on EL and the amazing speed on ER make them very powerful on any big target. Still don't agree? Try MGB EE right before engaging Sontalak then pull out your hammer and melee.

A number of druids on this forum have 60 clerics. They also come from a very diverse group of guilds ranging from casual Efreeti killers to VT clearers. Yet they seem to have reached the same consensus as the rest of the people in the game - the new cleric heals are really robust and powerful.

And yes, despite the fact that you feel he is being elitist because of his statement about your level, it holds a great deal of merit.

Let's take your typical seb group for example. Tank has probably 6k fully buffed hp, cleric may or may not be 60 yet. But you CH once the tank is around 20-30 life to stretch efficiency of the heal.

Now take your uber warrior with 8khp buffed in Ssra pulling one of those golem dudes I always forget the name of. Guess when we CH? Yep, we start the CH when the tank is at 80% life, and that is with a CE put on him BEFORE we pulled.

Still think you are playing the same game we are? Sorry, but there is no comparison. The game at 54 is nothing at all like the end game. I was a casual cleric before joining my guild, and in the first 3 weeks while I was an applicant, I had to relearn how to do my job.

I had to learn that having CH hit on my warrior at 70% was still breaking the 1600hp barrier to make CH mana efficient. I had to learn that Remedy cannot save even the worst equipped caster in the guild. I had to learn that mana efficiency takes a back seat to keeping the tank alive till a slow can land on a Eom.

Want to see firsthand the difference between 54 and 60? Go to Umbral and find Rumblecrush. Have your warrior burn defensive and engage him. You and another cleric try to keep him alive long enough for slow to land using only DL and remedy. Now repeat the process but use the new heal spells. See the difference?

<a href=http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=275688>Kahlia</a>

Lady Kasane
10-04-2002, 12:09 PM
Kahlia,
Veto has argued (in this thread) that the lvl 54 game is closer to the lvl 20 game than the lvl 60 game. Are you trying to agree with him?

As far as Remedy is concerned, I do use it when I need to slap a fast emergency heal on before casting CH. Why would I use EL for that? Read the cleric boards and you'll see that most clerics don't consider EL to be a very good spell and say they'll probably never use it. (Including lvl 60 clerics.)

Lady Kasane
10-04-2002, 12:15 PM
(As a matter of fact, if you read page 2 of this very thread you'll see a lvl 60 cleric who posted that EL is junk.)

Teaenea
10-04-2002, 12:32 PM
So a level 60 cleric though it was junk. I'm sure that some druids think TR is junk. Does that mean it's true? Personally, I think TR is a great spell and my cleric friends love EL. Go figure.

brum15
10-04-2002, 04:56 PM
Will just say that from talking to the clerics in my guild and some of our ally guilds, Etheral Remedy is very nice. The other two are kind of like the new portal spells. Okay but so situational that their game use is limited. Definitly not something to give to a class and call a balance issue or serious upgrade.

Grizlor
10-05-2002, 03:17 PM
Read the Shaman board. Apparently, no one has the faintest idea why their heal does 1k less than ours. Do I need to make a flashy 500 x 800 banner for them that says "YOU CAN SLOW" ? Or, perhaps one that says "YOU CAN SLOW AND HASTE" ?

Uh, thanks Elawnah for making an assinine blanket statement about shamans... I personally don't give an ufck whether you have a bigger direct heal than we do, it's been that way ever since you got divine light. But why should our heal be the same cast time and mana as "Tunare's Fornication" or whatever it's called, and only heal 2/3 the hit points? Cut the mana cost to 320 and the cast time down to 7 seconds and it would be all hunkey dorey. and if you're even worried about shamans using it on themselves while they cannibalize, I couldn't give 2 rat's @$$es whether they restrict it to "Cannot cast on self" or something. Just fix the spell so that the mana cost and cast time are in relation to the inferior ammount healed.

And as for your claim about having slow.... Cry me a river and group with an enchanter, bard, Epic ranger, hell a freakin beastlord or a warrior with a truncheon of doom will cut it. Please understand how to utilize the abilities of your own class before condemning the usefulness of those posessed by others.

FyyrLuStorm
10-05-2002, 05:22 PM
: crys a river for the big bear butt.

Kahlia Girlie
10-06-2002, 02:09 PM
Your level matters less to me than your experience. There are level 60 clerics who've never seen a zone harder than seb, and there are level 54 clerics who have helped kill Emperor. Your raid experience is what qualifies you to speak about the heals in real combat situations, not your level.

Now in an experience group, it's questionable. I tend to be in xp groups in DN or Ssra, so I generally fight level 55+ mobs for xp, not the level 45+ frogs in Sebilis. If you tend to fight in Velks or lower level xp zones, then remedy and DL may be more viable options for you.

In a _raid_ setting, the new heals are very powerful, and EL is much better than ER for the ratio.

Kahlia Girlie
10-06-2002, 02:13 PM
"Read the cleric boards and you'll see that most clerics don't consider EL to be a very good spell and say they'll probably never use it. (Including lvl 60 clerics)"

Those clerics are also fighting in Sebilis. They are in the 90% of EQ that will never see the "end game". I am in the 10%. Again, the spell lineup for those 90% is probably quite different than it is for those of us in the 10%, but then again, the strategies are very different also.

Use what works best for you. I only think you should reconsider the benefits of the new heals. You might surprise yourself.

brum15
10-06-2002, 03:44 PM
So as long as the 10% are happy we should not worry about the 90%? If 90% of the population would not use the spells then it is not an upgrade. That would be like putting a super non drop level 55 druid or cleric spell in a dungeon that only 10% of the population can get to and saying there is your upgrade.

Sure Clerics can get a spell that does quad damage, snare and sow all wrapped up into one. Druids you have a true CH that only cost 1 mana. However it will only be assessable to 10% of you. The other 90% tough. We balanced the important part.

That is what POP should be is upgrading to spells that the super guilds only will have access to. Balance before that should be accessable to all level 60s.

Just cause you happen to be one of those people who obviously dont have to work for a living and have hours and hours to dedicate to a guild that requires 3+ raids a week doesnt mean the rest of us do. On our server the majority of the uber guilds just so happen to be populated by immature adults in their 20s who still live at home and work maybe 20 hours a week (letting mommy and daddy pay the bills). The majority of the adults on our servers have a max of 2-3 hours a nite to play (usually only 3 nites a week cause there are other responsibilites) and maybe time for one raid on the weekends. you dont get into the power guilds with those time restrictions. Some of us work for a living. And the spells are not that useful to most of them that I have talked to. Point is they should have been. Balance should be accessable to all not just powergamers. If they choose to make POP a powergamer paradise then fine. Let those of us with more limited time know and we wont buy. Those three heals came out pre POP and should have been equally useful to casual player and powergamer.

Kahlia Girlie
10-06-2002, 04:14 PM
I'm not saying you won't use it, I'm saying maybe you should *gasp* think outside the Sebilis box. And nobody mentioned anything about how often you play. Sobe's guild is a great example of a top notch guild that only raids a few nights of the week.

Now that we've got that out of the way, get off your high horse, whip out a calculator, and you'll see why you have misjudged the heals you think are worthless.

Remedy: 2.62 hp/mana
Divine Light: 2.73 hp/mana
Ethereal Remedy: 2.56hp/mana
Ethereal Light: 3.2hp/mana

Right off we see EL has a killer ratio - enough of one that you should consider using it over DL. We also notice that ER has a slightly worse ratio than Remedy. However, ER casts in 2.8sec instead of the 3.0 for remedy, and it's a larger heal, which means against mobs over level 50, it's a great deal more useful.

You can chain cast a 459pt heal if you want to, and heal 908hp in 6sec. Or, you can cast one ER, heal 1023hp with a very comparable ratio in only 2.8sec.

Again, where you fight matters. If you are content to camp in Sebilis or Velk for the next two years, then hey, Remedy could be the mother of all heals for you. Or, if you decide you want a bit of a challenge and want to single group PoG or SG, then you'll find the new heals are an incredible increase in healing efficiency, for more reasons than just a ratio of hp to mana.

Aidon Rufflefuzz
10-06-2002, 08:02 PM
Tone down the personal attacks....Rant board or not, I'll lock this thread down if need be.

Keggie
10-06-2002, 09:18 PM
MY HEAD HURTS

Treyna Pynecone
10-10-2002, 03:51 AM
OMG

Out of all that there is ONE thing in my mind...... did someone say accurately that clerics are getting ports in PoP???

Too many pages for me to go back and look, and quite possibly WAYYYY too many posts about damn clerics heals I know nothing about....

So, clerics getting ports in PoP or what???

brum15
10-10-2002, 08:48 AM
depends on what kind of ports you are talking about. Clerics have faithstones. so one way port to home temple. All classes will get the limited town to town ports with POP. As far as getting the expanded druid or wizard variety--nope. While I would not mind seeing that spread out (to help collect guild for that out of the blue pop of epic mobs), I dont think clerics would be the right class to get it. Rez and convenient ports combined would probably drive Vrant up the wall.