View Full Forums : The Druids Grove Attitude


Aldarion Shard
04-25-2002, 09:03 AM
as a frequent poster on MB's across the net, ranging from Eqvault, to the good old whineplay boards, to safehouse and here... i can honestly say this board is now officially home to the worst "Uberguild Attitudes" of any. Bar none. It has now surpassed the FoH website, th only difference being the level of naughty words allowed.

i cannot convince those who are convinced that the sky is red. but i will attempt to lay out a few suggestions... a few issues that certain people are having....

1. lvl 60 uberguild raiding is such a minor part of the game it really belongs in the same category as tradeskills: a specialty, minority pursuit.

.... which is to say, how many times have you heard someone respond to a post with "bah n00b unles you have 250 tailoring you really dont know what yer talkin about, go back to raidng emperor crush k thx la~"

2. the fact that YOU personally had to go through certain pain-in-the-arse steps in order to gain some benefit is irrelevant to discussions of whether people SHOULD have to.

.... i am so damn tired of these "we walked both ways uphilll through rusty razor blades, you should too n00b k thx la~" defenses. I DONT CARE. conversations about game design are perfectly legitemate, and what you went through could not possibly be more irrelevant in a conversation about what people SHOULD have to go through.

3. for the high-and-mighty-I-only-grouped-in-fact-I-was-grouped-as-soon-as-I-made-my-char types: SOLOING IS IN NO WAY A BAD THING, AND RESPONDING TO POSTS WITH "heheh go back to quad kiting you n00b kk?" just make you look stupid.

im sick of this attitude on a druid board of all places. soloing is good and holy, and blessed in the sight of tunare. if you want to group, thats fine, but ya know what, chances are if you ONLY group you are a crappy soloer, due to less experiance. the complete druid will BOTH solo and group, and anyone who looks down on soloing is less of a druid because of it.

__________________________________________________ _

whats my point?

MB communities are a funny thing. a few uberguild losers start making the kind of comments outlined above and the next thing you know, every lvl 15 ranger and their sister is makin the same comments to fit in.

i am calling on those of you who aspire to be uber to come to your senses. stop making these ludicrous comments before this board truly DOES go the way of the FoH Flame Pit...

Xican TempestWolf
04-25-2002, 09:10 AM
Your attitude is far more inviting than the current one, here.

To quote the great, Red Foreman: "Dumb Ass"

I'm begining to revert to my "hate the world" mentality because of all the whinning and complaining lately. On both sides. If people stopped bitching about the "ubers" the "ubers" would stop bitching about the newbs. If we could all learn to shut the F*ck up, the world would be sooo much nicer.

You gotta understand, threads like this only give birth to more threads debating the more than likely idiotic ramblings of this thread! It's a vicious circle. Everyone's intelligent enough to point out the other's short commings, but not too stupid to just shut the f*ck up and end the arguing when the arguing and debating is why they were complaining in the first place!

Circles suck.

buzweaver
04-25-2002, 09:22 AM
Hail All,

The Board creature is really the one who determines what “Really” will be said/not said here. They may allow things to be posted on here, however they can just as easily remove, block or ban people from posting as they chose.

NO ONE HAS THE RIGTH to post, it’s a privilege the board administrator is giving us as posters. If people spent as much energy learning what they really have rights for, they’d realize how limited of rights you really have.

If you want the Right to be heard, go stand out on your street corner and start talking, be advised, if you start shouting and making nose you could be arrested for disturbing the peace with your right to speech.

Triena Twobooks
04-25-2002, 09:32 AM
Hay you dont have to take to hart everything you read. I know i dont. Strange thing is of all the boards I've posted to in my time, it think this is the only one were I've not got into a knowledge war.

Im not a member of an 'Uber' Guild. I dont subscribe at all to what your saying about 'following the crowd'. But what I do value about this site is that overall the knowledge is accurate, and I benifit greatly from leeching the pearls of knowledge.

The only real negative things I could not ignore was the massive assault on it from folk from Casters Realm over caster balance.

As for point 1. Its good that uberguild raiding does have a home somewere

Point 2. Yes your right about this one, but i cant say ive seen it much on this site, perhaps i auto ignore comments like this. The smart way is to learn the mistakes of the board the easys way.

Point 3. Humm soloing, personaly I hate it, its not a rich experience realy, not over the time to get from 1 - 60. If all you do is solo, well society as a whole tends to look down on you, this is human nature. Apart from that hardest mob you solo and survived thread that was very entertaining, theres not all that much to say about soloing. Soloing by default is less sophisticated, there are less varables. Whats the point on an online game if you solo? If soloings your bag then thats great. But its not like an artform. Taking responsibity for other people is what groupings about, and thats a finer thing, and more rewarding IMHO.

Its obvious that somethings eating you, but I think theres more to it that what you say.

Regards.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Triena Twobooks
57 Druid o' Xev

Tatankawd
04-25-2002, 09:51 AM
> If soloings your bag then thats great. But its not like an artform

You read the "hardest thing I soloed" thread? There is definitely an art to creative soloing. Granted, not your usual soloing that you do most of the time, but if you want to get adventurous, there is lots of room for creativity. But this can also be said for grouping. I have many times been in groups where we were not puching our limits, and there was nothing artful or creative about it.

> Taking responsibity for other people is what groupings about, and thats a finer thing, and more rewarding IMHO

Yes, but it also takes bigger blocks of free time. Soloing a lot does not make you anti-social. I sometimes log in on a Saturday with a free hour to waste. I can spend 30 minutes LFG and travelling, only to bail on a group 30 minutes after that, or I can do 4 quads, and make a blue in 58 (OK 59 now, so 2/3 of a blue).

Tat

Sobe Silvertree
04-25-2002, 10:00 AM
/shakes head -

Moved to Rants.

rtfm
04-25-2002, 03:24 PM
"NO ONE HAS THE RIGTH to post, it’s a privilege the board administrator is giving us as posters."

I have to disagree with this sentiment to a certain degree.

It is the community and posts of that community that draw us here, not the mods and administrator. They have abused their powers in the past and lost some valued community members in the past.

I'm not talking about fly-by-night Casters troll posters, I would have nuked them with impunity. Or set up a special Zoo section for them, so we could go there and laugh at them playing with their own poo.

Sobe Silvertree
04-25-2002, 03:45 PM
They have abused their powers in the past and lost some valued community members in the past.

During current administration? and who has abused there power? please explain

rtfm
04-25-2002, 03:53 PM
When Elial made MF a mod, she went on a rampage.

Pissed a lot of people off.

She is much better now, she even says bad words;)

Stormhaven
04-25-2002, 08:04 PM
I deleted rtfm's post because he duped it. I know at heart he was just trying to spam this forum with his evil ways!

I don't do much on this board - I delete dupe'd posts when I see them. I delete msgs marked "delete plz," so forth and so on. I move stuff now and then - spells to spells, quests to quests, etc, but I leave it up on General for at least a couple of days so every one can see it. When the hub-bub around it dies down, that's when I move it.

I don't do bans and stuff like that because I don't have the rights to do so. I generally don't "flame" people, mostly because I think I suck at it. There are some people who bring flaming to an artform, and some that just look like assholes when they do it. I think I'd end up as the latter, so instead of assuming the person is trying to pick a fight, I try and rationally pick apart their argument. Strangely enough that seems to have a more irritating effect.

Aidon Rufflefuzz
04-26-2002, 04:21 AM
Yeah..my response to this thread is missing now =P

I feel like I just lost my luggage or something =P

Tidaljade
05-13-2002, 07:13 PM
Want a cookie?

Tudamorf
05-13-2002, 07:43 PM
Xican says: If we could all learn to shut the F*ck up, the world would be sooo much nicer.

...and there would be no message boards. <img src=http://www.geocities.com/lag999/rolleyes.txt> <img src=http://www.geocities.com/lag999/biggrin.txt>

Tidaljade
05-14-2002, 11:19 AM
Hardly. Message boards are for information and socialization. Now, just cause you keep placing a candy dish of peppers at the door doesnt mean we all want one. Try the fridge where everyone can grab some spicy chit at their own free will.

Sorrun
05-14-2002, 11:21 AM
While I am known to not particularly have an affection for high level players (in general), I also recognize that they have just as much right to exist as I do. I think it is important to distinguish that...

That being said, the main problem I have with the overall high level attitude is that my feeling above isnt usually reciprecated and many times high level players feel that since they have achieved 60 (or there abouts), anything previous to 55 is not worth Sony's time to maintain. They want all the attention for high end issues such as class balance (which is really only a high level issue.. good examples of class imbalance pre50-55 are not very common). The same is true for pieces of the game outside of raids (quests, tradeskills, etc.)... if they dont use it, it is worthless and shouldnt be incorperated into anything that effects them (see recent PotC quest). I think this is extemely arrogant and that is what turns me off very quickly to high end players when I see these attitudes expressed by them.

In reply to the points specifically...

# 1: Hard to prove but I suspect you are correct... I also suspect that this is a product of a lack of quality high end content compared to low and mid level content. Players start over with new toons instead of quitting EQ once they reach 50-55 and realize the content at that level isnt what they play the game for or that it becomes much more of a timesink then they signed up for. The low and mid level content is much more condusive to players who dont have a whole day, several times a week to devote to raids or similar high end encounters. Again, neither is more right or wrong but when a player reaches the upper levels, the game definately changes towards raids, etc. and I suspect many players just dont have the time to sink into that activity so they start over as a different class and go from there.

# 2: I agree with this 100%. This attitude really means the high end players dont respect the accomplishment itself and just want the rewards and want those same rewards to be as tough for everyone as it was for them. This is usually supported by some lame arguement as to the value of said item... usually supported by more bad logic. It isnt good enough to say they conquered the content "back when it was tougher". It makes me think players who really believe this are playing for the loot and not for the experience of the game. To each thier own, but playing for loot makes me think they are missing the whole point of the game.

# 3: Agree 110%. I find it ironic how many times players who claim to have never soloed seem to understand alot about solo tactics and solo spots. I suspect many players who claim to have grouped most of thier life are lying and really group much less. Especially those that seem to have leveled pretty quickly. I am also interested in what someone like Triena has to say about soloing when they supposedly hardly solo... if you dont solo, you have no real comment to make. How do you know it is less sophisticated or takes less ability? I think you would find it is often times alot more sophisticated and takes alot more skill then the typical grouping experience.

The End.. :)

And how do I get my Emoticons to work? I see them in other posts but they never show up for my posts...

Tidaljade
05-14-2002, 02:28 PM
w00t tact! :p I agree with you Sorrun, every player, has the same rights as each (at least in my opinion). The thing is, people are more likely listen to an approach such as Sorrun's to the problem and add their equivelent input at their own free will rather than the 'nasty-negative-pepperspray for negative reaction insults' that totally ruin an awesome atmosphere. Quite counterproductive rather than saying what ya need to ta keep the flow :p (flame boards excluded! :p).

Miss Foxfyre
05-14-2002, 03:21 PM
Whoa, hold up, Sorrun my friend--

That being said, the main problem I have with the overall high level attitude is that my feeling above isnt usually reciprecated and many times high level players feel that since they have achieved 60 (or there abouts), anything previous to 55 is not worth Sony's time to maintain.

That's not how I feel. But Sorrun, you have to admit that mudflation affects the 50-60 population a lot more than the under-50 population. A lot of the items responsible for mudflation are no drop and aren't really gotten until the endgame. It's this whole inflationary problem that causes concern.



They want all the attention for high end issues such as class balance (which is really only a high level issue.. good examples of class imbalance pre50-55 are not very common).

Um, no. We don't "WANT" the attention, it's 50-60 that was @#%$ up to begin with since ROK's release over two years ago!


The same is true for pieces of the game outside of raids (quests, tradeskills, etc.)... if they dont use it, it is worthless and shouldnt be incorperated into anything that effects them (see recent PotC quest). I think this is extemely arrogant and that is what turns me off very quickly to high end players when I see these attitudes expressed by them.

Excuse me, but are you seriously trying to lump all of us into this uberguild mentality? I have never been in an uberguild or 90% raiding guild, Sorrun. I don't feel quests or tradeskills are a waste of time in and of themselves although the implementation of specific quests/tradeskills ought to be better. You'll find some players who push the arrogant attitude here, but we are not all like that. LOL.

Oldoaktree
05-14-2002, 03:40 PM
Hmm...

I am a kinda newcomer to this board, in that I read it some in my druidy youth but fell out of the habit, then came back recently and find a combination of things that are of more interest to me, and greater knowledge and exp on my own part that makes a lot of what was here before more meaningful to me.

I have to admit I don't understand this Uber/Newb debate (not my words, yours). My guild raids a lot but I would not put us in the category I think you mean. I find the debates about level 60 issues, raid issues, class balance issues, and implementation issues both relevant and meaningful, and I read a lot and try to give all a listen.

I know this is the rants section, but I just don't understand why there is even the implication here that certain types of debates should simply not occur on this board. While server space is not infinite, the extensive categories and posts amply prove, at least to me, that there is room here for all posts, debates and discussions for all aspects of the game.

I see a lot of threads about issues pertinant to a druid's role in a boss mob raid hijacked and criticized simply for being what they are - discussions that are of great interest to some here on the board.

I also seen a lot of "where do I go to solo at level X" threads hijacked. I don't understand this either. If you don't like to solo, why not just skip the thread?

I don't think that there is any meaningful argument about where the art is in playing a druid - solo or group. If you solo, yes you can do mindnumbing, repetitive stuff and just grind away. Or (and this is FAR more common) you will find you continue to stretch yourself and do harder and harder things to keep the adreneline flowing...like if I am quadding some undying iksars in the grey and get 8 instead of 4 and just keep going. Can be tricky as hell to manage that since one quad on those takes more than a full bar of mana for me.

Similarly for grouping, it is very, very easy to sit on your @#%$ as a druid in an exp group and let the exp roll in. Our casts are slow and often you can only get in one nuke per mob, so you slap on that snare, one nuke, sit and repeat endlessly. A great group can really stretch your skills...like going deep in Chardok without a chanter or a cleric and playing damn hard to compensate.

I am sorry but I have seen lots of pontification on what is the "right" or "best" way to play on all sides and in all ways, and I think it is all a bit crap. You get out of the game and the playtime what you put into it, whether it be nutty soloing or powerpulling with a group or whatever.

And your skills as a druid are based on how you do what you do, not what you do.

Now where is MY soapbox? I think it is my turn to pontificate (again).

Sorrun
05-14-2002, 05:16 PM
Fox, didnt mean to imply all high levels fit my post but there are definately more then enough to justify my position here on the Grove, not to mention if I venture to a few other class boards.

I am simply saying as soon as I see signs of that general attitude I pretty much write them off as just another arrogant high level player who most likley powered past the guts of this game and carries little regard or true understanding of anything outside high end content...

That is all...

:)

Stormhaven
05-14-2002, 06:55 PM
Sorrun said: I am simply saying as soon as I see signs of that general attitude I pretty much write them off as just another arrogant high level player who most likley powered past the guts of this game and carries little regard or true understanding of anything outside high end content...

Many of your true "hardcore" players have probably been playing a lot longer than you have, Sorrun. I know my guild has at least 30% of it's currently active population which can date characters back to EQ's release day, and most of them who played during the beta.

I had been at my former job for over six years and was considered a veteran/senior at my company in my particular area. Well, I had weathered it all, reorgs, newbie hires, management changes, etc. Every six months or so, we'd get a herd of fresh-faced new hires who were all excited about coming to work, ready to jump 110% into their duties. When management made changes, they believed the positive dribble that they were told would occur. When workload increased and we were told relief would be on the way soon, the newbie believed management. The old veterans like myself knew that nothing would truly change, and that management always lied. As the new hire started accumulating time under their belt, they too became jaded like the old vets, seeing the falsehoods upon which management built their fortress made of promises never kept, and things gone awry.

EQ is much like a job in this way.

The people who have been playing since 1998 have a slightly more jaded viewpoint of Verant and their ways. We have learned to take all the "good things" with a grain of salt, knowing that every silver lining has to surround a dark cloud. However, we still play - and it's because of the high level players that many of the lower level players enjoy many of their benefits.

"Arrogant high level player attitude" stems from the fact that many of us have gotten to the point of being able to identify what's got a even a small chance of becoming real, and what's got no chance in hell of ever happening. I'd guess that I could probably read 96% of the posts in any of the forums in the Druid's Grove that contain the phrase "I wish" in the message, and I could guess correctly if it would ever happen, or if VI would say, "no way."

It's never a pretty thing to bring reality crashing down on a dreamer's head, but sometimes you've got to brush away what we'd like in order to focus on what we need.

Dnise Ivyblaze
05-14-2002, 08:59 PM
"EQ is much like a job in this way."

You said it best. It's indeed like a job.

You really don't WANT to go in,sit and be bored for hours,deal with all the pricks around you, but if you don't, your co-workers.. ("guild") get peeved.

Iisbliss
05-14-2002, 08:59 PM
well about 18 months ago I asked druids grove to make a forum for uber or high level only issues

instead we have some "hippy forum" no one uses !!

I have a right to have somewhere to go besides the "****house" and Graffes dont I?

Sorrun
05-15-2002, 05:55 AM
If I recall correctly, EQ was released in April of 1999, which is when I started playing (maybe May 1999, but close enough in my book)... I assume your reference to 1998 is from beta... anyone who bases thier attitude on a beta product is foolish anyway so as far as I am concerned I have been here as long as any of your guild. The only area I havent experienced at length is the high end content... perhaps it is this area that breeds negativity? If so, interesting that you all stay playing...

Interesting though Storm that you ellude to the EXACT high level arrogance that I refer to... thanks for proving my point. It is obvious you believe that somehow you know more about EQ then the average player because you are high level and have supposedly been around longer then most. You then go on to assume that because I am less negative towards EQ then you are that I must be newer to the game then you and am some kind of dreamer... Very arrogant and very incorrect assumptions but excellent proof that my position is not unfounded.

As far as anyone treating EQ like a job... man, is there anything more sad then that?

Stormhaven
05-15-2002, 07:55 AM
Actually Sorrun, it's interesting because you're doing the same thing that you're accusing higher level players of doing. You're assuming that just because you don't play the high level game that the lower level game should get more attention.

And, by your own definition, if you have not experienced the high end game, then you do know less about a specific area of Everquest than I do. You have, in turn, proved my point for me.

As for this being a job, it has been well established that the people who play EQ do not all play the same game. I started out in the "friends guild" - the guild that everyone hung out together, got xp together, and thought places like SolA were really hard dungeons. I got enjoyment out of that for a while, but as I leveled my characters, I found that the people I hung out with did not have the same drive to "beat" the game as I did. They thought fighting dragons was some fantasy far far beyond the reach of our small troop, and therefore were not willing to put forth the effort to reach that goal.

Back then, I was the type of player who stayed up for 20hrs at a time because I wanted to finish Final Fantasy, or later on, Baldur's Gate. The people I was around were not of the same mind frame.

So with a heavy heart, I left that guild and went on to my current one.
What a change.
We were raiding 6 out of 7 days of the week. I'd get home from work and play EQ till midnight or later every day.

For stepping up to that level of play, I got to replace such items as my Blackened Iron Medallion with Klandicar's Talisman, my Shroud of Nature with the Twisted Nature Chestguard. That's what brought the game back to me. Until then, it was just sheer boredom doing nothing but trying to get "phat loot" camp spots in areas like Sebilis.

Now, there are people who do the exact same thing, just on a different portion of the game. I'd go over to EQTraders from time to time and read about people who did multiple hours worth of camping to raise their brewing/tailoring/smithing from 179 to 190. I would just shake my head and think, "no way in hell..." Chances are, if I went to that same person and said, "Hey, you wanna camp Ssra for four hours to see if 1:6 people gets a shard that's 1/10 of the key quest?" they would just look at you as if you had a lobster crawling out of your ear.

Like Fox said earlier, the lower end game actually does not require as much tweaking as the high end game does. A good deal of that is due to the fact that the same people you're complaining about now complained about the issues back then. Now with VI's own tweaking of how exp works, it's even easier to get out of those levels and onward to what even Verant said was the "bulk" of their content. The 51+ game. After all, when Kunark first came out, their specs stated that it would take the same time to go from 51-60 as it took to get from 1-50. From what I can see, the mid-30's player doesn't even bother to get their quest armor anymore - they just go straight to twinking and getting items from Seb. I can't really say I feel much empathy towards a player who wants something the caliber of a 55+ dungeon drop from a level 30+ quest. The 30-50 quest rewards are well tuned for rewards for those levels - the problem is that the player is no longer geared towards the 30-50 game. Flooding the lower levels with brand new, better gear is not going to resolve the problem either.

Now you want to try and turn this into a personal flame, that's fine with me, but you'll get no return fire from me. Quite honestly I could care less about what you think of me or of my attitude, because you don't know me and the context of emotion you put behind my words are those which you have added with your own mentality. If you don't like the way I post, or my words, the solution is rather simple. Much like in game, all you have to do is ignore me, and not read my posts.

Aidon Rufflefuzz
05-15-2002, 08:02 AM
Sorrun,

The simple fact remains that you are lacking in knowledge of a significant portion of the game. A portion that is constantly growing as more and more people level up. The high end game.

Yet you seem content to comment on the Druid situation in that aspect of the game.

Much like a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle not a square...those who participate in the high level game have experienced that which you have experienced. You, on the other hand, have not experienced all they have.

Aldarion Shard
05-15-2002, 09:51 AM
aidon, please dont take this personlly... because i loved your rant on POTC haha.

but i think youre a little off in the statement that the "high end game" is growing so fast.

the "uber attitude" that i was originally talking about was the kind of people who make statements like:

"SOD? bah thats a nice twink weapon, but certainly not a high end weapon."

"raid? you arent seriously calling killing trak a raid are you?"

"until youve camped for 400+ hours for shards, you realy have no right to comment on key quests"

... THESE are the people i was referring to. and i dispute your assertion that this population is a significant percentage of the EQ population.

what IS growing? lvl 55-60 warriors in cobalt and lammies. lvl 55-60 druids in thurg armor. lvl 55-60 enchanters in bonecaster robes.

the "uber high end game" is and always will be a minority.

Sorrun
05-15-2002, 10:05 AM
First of all, as to my comment below..

As far as anyone treating EQ like a job... man, is there anything more sad then that?

My bad... I suppose to each thier own. I personally dont play any video game treating it as a job and cant imagine doing so as being any fun. That doesnt mean my view is right though so I take that back...

As for everything else, it is apparent there is no winning this arguement... not that I thought I could but oh well...

Storm and Aidon... you both support your arguments with the exact high end arrogance I am referring to.

A good deal of that is due to the fact that the same people you're complaining about now complained about the issues back then.

HUGE assumption that those that leveled along side of you to 50 (me for instance) stayed playing to 60 and play in the high game today that you hold so dear. Many of those players, such as myself, dont have the time or desire to play EQ 5-6 days a week for 10+ hours each day to get a new BP or a fancy new ring. BUT.. we had just as much voice as you did back in the 20', 30's and 40's. To support this I have to look no further then the high number of players I constantly run into in the mid level game that obviously understand the game at a higher level and openly admit when asked that the high end game isnt for them so they started a new class and play that instead. They play to 50-55 and start over as another class to explore the world from a different perspective. I suspect this accounts for many more players then you think it does. I estimate that I run into at least one person in every group I join that fits this profile. If any high level players have twinks that they didnt PL to 55 to join in the raids want to test this be my guest.. I think you will be surprised at what you find.

The simple fact remains that you are lacking in knowledge of a significant portion of the game. A portion that is constantly growing as more and more people level up. The high end game.

This is also assuming alot based on an arrogant high end perspective. It is the typical "We are more important since we have either played the longest or play the most" viewpoint. Significant portion? Hmm.. maybe from your perspective, but I find it hard to believe 5 levels of content consitute more then 10% of the content in this game. I will let someone else do the math but I will be surprised if it turns out different.. this has been done in the past and amounted to less then most people thought it would have. 10% is not significant by comparison to other levels and that figure hasnt changed in over a year... Luclin added some high end content but many of the zones on Luclin are easily adventured in by me at 52... I wouldnt consider that high end content at all.

Iisbliss
05-15-2002, 12:54 PM
I agree with sorrun, its hard to find good help nowadays

Miss Foxfyre
05-15-2002, 02:32 PM
OK, two fast comments from me, then I'll STFU.

Game balance 1-50, 50-60
Yes, Sorrun, I agree that some quests 1-50 are no longer worth anything due to mudflation. Example: If you can buy a pretty Bone Handled Scimitar for 3k, then why do the Paw of Oppala quest? If you can buy a Paw for 600pp, then why do the quest? Old quests are made obsolete by the introduction of new items, and I agree that VI needs to retune old quests or something. On the other hand, I disagree that 1-50 needs equal gameplay tweaking. Low levels are better equipped than they ever have been; they have more access to better stuff than we ever did when we started our characters, and they level faster and better than we did -- 1-20 can be done in one sitting due to twinking and mudflation; players can do 1-50 much faster now than we could. However, 50-60 has been messed up since Kunark's release over two years ago. Melee balancing was done, yet casters are still waiting for this. This is more than TWO years in the making, which pretty much proves how messed up 50-60 was and how much it needs fixing.


Endgame be-all end-all attitude
I don't think the dominant attitude on DG is the uberendgame. But it is a big concern to the druid class in general since the attrition is high and many many have left the class to play useful raid classes. Yes, that is one of my concerns as well, and when you level to 60, you will feel it too. No one is fronting the superior attitude; it's simply stating observations from having played the game at X level.

Secondly, the endgame is of some concern in the evolution of EverQuest. Mudflation is one aspect of it. Overcrowding and overpopulation is another. Why would VI decide it's a good time to release the only high-level expansion? Because a significant number of players are at that stage after this much time, and more raid zones are needed. Simple fact, hence Planes of Power.

Aidon Rufflefuzz
05-15-2002, 03:46 PM
Significant portion? Hmm.. maybe from your perspective, but I find it hard to believe 5 levels of content consitute more then 10% of the content in this game.

Many people I know..spend longer in the levels from 55-60 than they spent in 1-54. I certainly did.

You cannot comprehend the hell that is levelling 55+ until you do it. I certainly didn't.

Then you have to take into account that many people have spent a year or more in level 60 now...that is a significant portion of their game.

If you make the effort to level to 60 and to continue playing while 60, you will spend a significant portion of your game there. More and more people are making it to 60. This is why they are adding more high level zones vs low and medium level zones. Low and medium level zones by their vary nature, are used for a bit..then abandoned by a character, making their use transient and relatively infrequent. This is why in the old game, Sol B and Lguk were constantly packed. Why Seb and Velks still are.

Miss Foxfyre
05-15-2002, 04:05 PM
Significant portion? Hmm.. maybe from your perspective, but I find it hard to believe 5 levels of content consitute more then 10% of the content in this game.

Adding a bit to Aidon's comments...

No, it's not five levels of CONTENT. It's the 50-60 player population, Sorrun.

If you started playing a year ago and made steady progress, you'd have at least one 50+ character by now. If you started two years ago, you might have two or three 50+ characters. (If you play on regular basis.)

The 50-60 population has grown out of control due to better equipment, better spoilers, better guilds -- MUDFLATION. There is not enough content for 50-60s.

Sorrun
05-15-2002, 06:31 PM
I guess we need to define "high end content"... i define that as raid material... i dont consider myself high end at 52, nor would most level 60's from the general banter I get from posting my opinions here on the Grove...

Therefore, my definition of "high end content" is raid zones and other related high end encounters... that pretty much limits you to 55-60...

Many players get to 50-55 and start over since above that requires much more time commitment then they have to commit other then to just solo or exp group to 60 to say you got there.

So based on that, which I consider a reasonable definition, yes, 10% of the game is probably the limit for what some call a "significant portion". I suppose it can be defined anyway you want to grow that 10% but in the end, high end encounters are probably far less then 10%...

Tidaljade
05-15-2002, 07:14 PM
So, let me get this straight, Foxfire. And this isnt a flame but an honest question. Are you saying that because the majority hit the level cap that metaphorically we hit the bottom of the penny jar, so to speak? If that were the case, what would widening the penny jar do (read: lvl 70+). Just curious.

Miss Foxfyre
05-15-2002, 08:42 PM
Are you saying that because the majority hit the level cap that metaphorically we hit the bottom of the penny jar, so to speak? If that were the case, what would widening the penny jar do (read: lvl 70+). Just curious.

We hit the bottom at 60 before AA existed.

Now we have AA, not levels, but hell, they sure are *like* levels (like doing 51-52 over and over and over again). A rose by any other name...

Like it or not, AA is keeping us 60s busy for now. I know a wizard on Sol Ro who has over 120 points. And that was three weeks ago when I asked him. /wave Yamdarr

If VI doesn't give us more levels, they are surely giving us more AA skills, and Planes of Power will be the first ever high-level raid-oriented expansion. Velious was not because it had level 30-ish as its "starting point" of content.

Hrmf!

Aidon Rufflefuzz
05-16-2002, 04:22 AM
If that were the case, what would widening the penny jar do (read: lvl 70+). Just curious.

It would drive many of us to madness.

There is one area in which AAxp are different from levelling. /con.

A level 50 who walks into NToV is a dead man in short order.

If I walk into NToV at level 60, but without any AAxp...i'll be fine, just not as effective, as the guy who has 100 Aaxp.

The pressure to "level", thankfully, is not there with AAxp. If they increase the level cap with PoP...that pressure is back, and it sucks.

For many people who knowingly level their character to 60, that is the starting point for the game. For me it was. Levels 1-59 were tedious work that had to be done before I could get level 60, relax, and enjoy the game, the quests, the raids, etc.

Then those bastards went and brought out crap like SoL, and the quest for PotC, and @#%$ it all up.

Aldarion Shard
05-16-2002, 06:31 AM
level 60 is not the high end game.

people get lvl 60 grinding in velks. and they still dont make comments about godly weapons being twink items, or about nothing short of Ssraa bosses being worthy of being called a raid.

i know the pain of post-55 exp all too well. but thats not the high end game, and that doesnt breed this attitude.

ah wel;.

Stormhaven
05-16-2002, 08:31 AM
You ask why many high-end raiders complain about "high end content"? It's because so much of it is broken - and if it's not broken, it's definitely not finished.

So, what it comes down to is that for the 1-51 players - Verant does fix you first. Why? Because that most of the population will hit those bugs/problems first. So in order for high-end content to get fixed, yes sometimes we have to yell a little louder because we are a smaller population.

That being said, 55-60's are probably also the fastest growing population.

Imagine your guild has just gotten to the point where they feel confident they can take on Vulak and the rest of NToV. You battle your way through Aaroynarr, Lady Nev, Sevelak, and the rest of the bunch. You even feel up to the challenge of the "Ring of Vulak". Even through the waves of AE Death touches, you persevere. Then, finally after the last attack...

...nothing happens.

No Vulak, no Veeshan, no Sleeper, no anything.
Verant says, "Working as intended."
GM says, "There's nothing I can do."

Congratulations, you've just spent around 8 or more hours crawling through the Temple of Veeshan, giving out countless rez's, medding for hours, and getting some pretty decent loot overall. But you've been denied the finish. You can't "end" the encounter. Why? Because a problem that's been in the game for at least two months still hasn't been fixed yet.

Working by design.
Welcome to high end content.

Tidaljade
05-16-2002, 03:23 PM
Hmm. Ya all good points. I dunno, I'd prolly play more if the bar was raised (level) but that's me and not the whole. I did arround 8 aaxp and got bored lol.

Iisbliss
05-16-2002, 08:50 PM
Yamdarr doesnt count

He gets exp while he sleeps = )

Lith Ahntalon
05-16-2002, 09:17 PM
Just to add to what Stormhaven said about endgame stuff. Yup some of it is broken, look at what happened in Acriyla. Some guild put in LOTS of time and work and bam they get the satifaction of the kill but, almost no reward. I think what the High End gamers see also is the Potential that VI has when they create certain encounters but, many times it seems to fall short or is broken. Thus the somewhat Jaded veiw of many things.