Me, I bought my goldYou got enough help. Don't expect anything from me.

And as to the previous comment, I will have to buy my mounts which will drain all the gold I bought,and really, is there such thing as too much gold? =-D

Yes there is. If people buy money there is an excess of gold in the market the value of items sold decreases therefore ruining the economy especially for those who do not buy gold.

THERE IS A REASON IT IS AGAINST BLIZZARDS RULES!!!

I will have to buy my mounts which will drain all the gold I bought,and really, is there such thing as too much gold? =-D

Wow, missed the comment Create quoted. Yeah, enough help. GL.

Yes there is. If people buy money there is an excess of gold in the market the value of items sold decreases therefore ruining the economy especially for those who do not buy gold.

THERE IS A REASON IT IS AGAINST BLIZZARDS RULES!!!

I saw why it was an economical fallacy when it ocurred in UO (people used illegal duping techniques). However, I haven't heard of a duping macro in WoW so I don't see how it would cause an influx of in-game gold seeing as how the gold is merely farmed from mobs that are already there and already have the gold on them.

If i'm mistaken, please enlighten.

I have started a new post about gold, so please take all your comments there and help keep this thread for tanking. Thank you

batoviking, you will not live it down. If you want to cheat at the game no one here is going to help you do it.

Ok, recently I have gotten into a scuffle with several members on the threads. Being a n00b I hope to investigate and find out if buying gold is really bad for the economy.

So
1. Is buying gold bad and why?
2.The reason I bought gold was because I don't have enough time to farm gold, so does it diminish my in-game experience or enhace it?
3.and most important, how does buying gold affect a realms economy specifically?

any mature and constructive comments are appreciated

I hope to learn if is truly good or bad and to adjust my playing manner in way that helps me and other people have an enjoyable game experience.

Thank you

1. Is buying gold bad and why?


What I want to know, is trolling bad? And why? If trolls could be druids would it be OK? What if I want to support Chinese workers but don't like Walmart? So many questions...

1. Buying gold is against the rules.

2. Not having time doesn't mean you can break a rule. You might as well just go to ebay and buy a level 60 with that logic.

3. There will always be gold farmers and people who buy gold from them so I'm not sure what a server would be like without.

Honestly, you don't sound like you knew it was against the rules to buy gold but for future reference it is.

1. Buying gold is against the rules.

2. Not having time doesn't mean you can break a rule. You might as well just go to ebay and buy a level 60 with that logic.

3. There will always be gold farmers and people who buy gold from them so I'm not sure what a server would be like without.

Honestly, you don't sound like you knew it was against the rules to buy gold but for future reference it is.


ok well to put this reply into perspective, granted blizzard has stated that purchasing gold is against the ToS, but how many other things in life that you knowingly do that is against the rules. Do you speed? Have you ever jay-walked? Have you ever payed a bill late? Have you ever skipped school? etc. I'm not trying to be a dick, but I just think that people should worry about themselves more than they worry about what others are doing. We have GM's that are paid to handle these kind of situations.

Also, the gold is not being generated by any other source than Blizzard, which means no addtional gold is being added, Gold that is bought is still earned from the game, just not from the guy who purchased the gold. Don't let this turn into a "well I only don't make enough money to buy gold, so I'm going to flame people who do" thread. Move on with your life and focus more on yourself. Gold is not hard to get in this game, but if someone wants to enjoy the finer points in this game and doesn't have the time to invest in working towards that the hard way, then who are any of you to criticize<sp?>. Until Blizzard puts any of us on the payroll, no of us have a finger to point with.


Iva

Moving this to rants, and moving the personal attacks out. I understand the strong opinions, but you still need to follow the posting rules.

ok well to put this reply into perspective, granted blizzard has stated that purchasing gold is against the ToS, but how many other things in life that you knowingly do that is against the rules. Do you speed? Have you ever jay-walked? Have you ever payed a bill late? Have you ever skipped school? etc. I'm not trying to be a dick, but I just think that people should worry about themselves more than they worry about what others are doing. We have GM's that are paid to handle these kind of situations.

Also, the gold is not being generated by any other source than Blizzard, which means no addtional gold is being added, Gold that is bought is still earned from the game, just not from the guy who purchased the gold. Don't let this turn into a "well I only don't make enough money to buy gold, so I'm going to flame people who do" thread. Move on with your life and focus more on yourself. Gold is not hard to get in this game, but if someone wants to enjoy the finer points in this game and doesn't have the time to invest in working towards that the hard way, then who are any of you to criticize<sp?>. Until Blizzard puts any of us on the payroll, no of us have a finger to point with.


Iva

Personally, I am an extremely prude person and do my best to follow any and all rules. Yes, I drive like a grandma but I feel that it's my obligation to. I'm sure there are rules that I do break because of ignorance, but this doesn't justify breaking a rule after you find out you aren't supposed to. Honestly, a justification of 'I can do something wrong because this person is doing something wrong' is a bad justification. When we were little kids we always heard the saying that 2 wrongs don't make a right.

I'm sure Bliz has a good reason for making buying and selling gold against the rules. I didn't write the rules but I agree with them at every patch and update as does everyone else.

Plus when everyone follows the rules and don't look for shortcuts and cheats it makes the game more fun for everyone.

Of course buying gold is bad.

Sure some of those big factories paying workers, even children almost $10/hour pay these workers. The children are being PAID to play a game but how would you feel in a big factory probably uncomfortable and being around a computer 24/7. Not much fun is it. Probably not healthy either.

Besides, buying gold is illegal and any account involved in gold 'farming to sell' will be banned. Not too sure about Blizzard's stsand on accounts that do buy gold but I don't think it would be a good idea. You ruin the economy, you 'cheat' your way through the game. Sure you might seem really cool, but did YOU gain respect and those epics because you earned it or did you spend money paying illegal accounts...

y last thought: If you buy gold, that means that accounts are making gold off of probably loot and they won't be upgrading their equiptment. See if lots of people bought gold, the prices at AH would rise and for the people who play the game fairly, we would be forced to pay these inflated prices.

akes sense doesn't it? More gold for less proper playing accounts.

Sure some of those big factories paying workers, even children almost $10/hour pay these workers. The children are being PAID to play a game but how would you feel in a big factory probably uncomfortable and being around a computer 24/7. Not much fun is it. Probably not healthy either.
.

ore like a dollar a day if they are lucky, these are sweatshops, not office buildings with cubicles.

It hurts the server economy/community in several ways:

1. Is the queues. If more people are buying gold the demand for gold on that server goes up so the farmers send more slaves into raise it so it can be sold, server population goes up, queues get longer.

2. It becomes harder for people legitimately trying to find their own resources to have to compete with round -the-clock forced labor, a small army of miners can make it tough for the rest of us to get thorium.

3. Prices become overly inflated, people charge more for their BoE drops in the AH because they know someone will buy it for their twink, then they turn around and have tons of gold to spend and don't necessarily care as hard about getting the lowest price, so the market price rises to accomodate, leaves out the casual gamer.

4. It is a felony. (Violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act of 1986, look it up).

5. Cheapens the accomplishments of players who earn their gear.

Why did people get so offended at the poster for asking about gold buying? They stated they are a noob and are looking for information. That's like slapping the teen that asks their parents about drugs. I totally understand why buying gold is tempting... Has anyone played Warcraft III? Ever heard of typing "greed is good" (or something like that.. can't remember the exact cheat) for unlimited gold? The point is, it's a game and sometimes it's fun to do just to get past that fustrating level. Many gold buyers are decent, perhaps ignorant people and don't deserve to be flamed.

In terms of the game though, the economy cannot support the influx of gold that gold buyers will bring in. (RE: other posters who have given awesome specifics). I think what gold buyers forget is that WoW being a MMORPG means it's a community. Your actions (and chances are, what you do has been/will be done by others) affect the entire community so there must be rules in place in order to preserve the health and prevent self destruction of this community. But the truth is, the "health of the community" is more important than satisfying the temporary wants of a few. And when I say "health of the community" I'm refering to the WoW economic community, AND the gaming sweatshop community (definitely NOT healthy). Morally, Blizzard will not support any form of gold farming. They obviously cannot. So basically, any argument on why the extra gold is not "extra" since it's farmed in game or that it is just a small ripple in the ocean are pretty much irrelevent, but good for debate only.

Not that I'm condoning gold-buying, or anything, but I can see the appeal for some people. Think about it- if its, say, $5/100g (I have no idea what it really is, these are just easy numbers to work with), and you work a really low-paying job (say $10/hour), you can effectively "farm" 200g in an hour (whereas in game, you won't be able to come up with nearly as much, in such a small time frame). If you spend most of your time in-game, say, end-game raiding, your repair bills tend to drain whatever funds you scrounge up, so instead of wasting a few hours when you aren't raiding to farm, you can just buy 100g or whatever and cover repair/reagant costs.

(this is the view that I've gotten from more than a few people I've talked to, but I don't actually raid yet, so I'm not entirely sure on the accuracy of my statements :p)

If you spend most of your time in-game, say, end-game raiding, your repair bills tend to drain whatever funds you scrounge up, so instead of wasting a few hours when you aren't raiding to farm, you can just buy 100g or whatever and cover repair/reagant costs.

Of course it's tempting for players lol. It's a business that is marketed just like that. For people who don't have time to go through all the motions of the game, spending a few dollars for some gold will definitely speed up their progress. Sure doesn't sound particularly evil to me. And if these people only used the 100g or whatever to cover repairs then there may not be an effect to the whole community since the repair NPC will not change their price just 'cause they know you're a big spender.

But what about buying reagents (trade skill items, eg. herbs for pots, dark iron ore for flame resistant armour, etc, and not just stuff from the reagent vendors)? These reagents are supplied by the players, so now what you're doing is affecting the market. Over time (from others having the same - single player mentality) the effects will be felt by the AH and the server population will respond. In the real economy, price hikes are often offsetted by the fact that people can choose another market and the lack of demand will drive down prices. With so few markets in WoW it will take a long time for markets to recover. The quality of the game will definitely go down before that happens.

I suppose it's hard for people to understand how the simple act of buying a lil gold to offset costs can cause such drastic game play changes but the fact is that the potential for abuse and the amount of damage that could be done to the game is huge. Keeping this in mind, perhaps it's a bit clearer why there needs to be a zero-tolerance policy in place (i.e. banning) before things get out of hand?

Think about the way you raise gold legitimately.

Sure, some is from vendor trash off mobs, but the real money makers are other players. No matter what your profession is, the way you make money is collecting stuff (or making it) and selling it to other players that need it. In some cases they need it so they can make better stuff to sell to other playyers so they can make more money etc...

If you skip the process of bringing needed goods to market, the mats won't be there for the other players that need them shrinking supply and increasing prices at the same time the over supply of gold is driving prices up. Its a horrible spiral.

ok i think you're missing the point about the excess gold. Ok say Blizzard decided to put 1 mill gold into a server, and then let the money circulate. Players kill the mobs, the mobs drop coinage, the players spend the coinage at vendor, Blizzard takes the money from the vendors and puts them back on the mobs. There is no dupping of money in this game. So what that means is money bought is money earned reagrdless of who earned it. The reason AH prices inflate so much is greed, not a person buying gold. People see that others need Dragonscales, so they put it up at a price, if it sells, then they put it alittle higher. All in an effort to make money. If someone is dumb enough to buy something for an overpriced amout, then that is thier perogative, but I've seen people who have made thier money honestly buy a 100g item for 500g, just because they have the money. example: I'm trying to raise my Thornium Brotherhood Rep. I purchased all the Incendasaur Scales on the AH for 1g per 10. The next time I went to purchase some, they were 2g per 10 from the same guy. Do I buy gold? No. But i'm jacking up the economy because I'm buying something for higher than it's worth.

The money supply is not static. Blizzard exerts little to no control over the game economy. Their drains on the money supply are in place and unadjusted for inflation.

acroeconomics folks. Study up and come back. Gold sellers and buyers speed up inflation. This is not good for your playerbase.

Thank you all! This is why I came to this lovely forum.
I will never buy gold again, really.

one less thing on my noob count

And that sweatshop mentality you gave me really affected me.

We'll I did go get my herbalism up(can't buy that)
so getting money will not be a prob.

Now, I fell like a bad celebrity being the most quoted dude on the forum!
TY XD

Batoviking is someone who knows all about druids, I love to qoute him I even put it my in sig. check it out....

Look, please leave me alone. I came here to discuss not to be hounded.

And besides, when you do make tons of money totally through your efforts and without cheating your way through, you have more pride in your efforts than the guy next to you who bought his whole end-game set...

Thread may look a little confusing -- I moved the gold comments out of the tanking thread to here.

thank you for moving the comments to this thread here, it will definitely help others understand our viewpoint

Long story short, here's what happens:

1. People buy gold on server X. The more people that want to buy it, the more farmers are out farming it. More gold is pushed into the economy.

2. Relatively common drop items, Traveler's Backpacks, fall in price as the gold farmers dump these on the AH.

3. Common crafted items fall in price. Common consumeables (major mana/healing pots) get cheap compared to months before, as more players farm the mats. Those out to make quick gold undercut others and drive prices down. I've seen the price of potions drop 50% in the last 4 months on my server.

4. Rare items are, well, still rare. DM Librams and Library quest books, Foror's (warrior epic sword quest item), Essence of Air, Righteous Orbs, etc. Demand on these items items always outstrips supply. When you see a flood of said items, it's nearly a gaurantee that the farmers (not above using exploits in the least) have a new program to farm mobs that drop these. Prices on rare drops soar, as people (who've bought gold, or earned money off people who bought gold) are willing to pay just about anything for them.

You don't need a lot of in-game currency in WoW. You have repair bills, a mount, and some consumeables. You don't need to pay $ for gold for these things at all, just play a couple hours a week in addition to your raiding and you'll have enough. More experienced raiding guilds MAKE money clearing MC and BWL. WoW was designed this way, to discourage gold buying/selling.

Rare drop, tradeable items are what encourage people to buy gold more than anything else. The worst offenders are listed above.

Sadly, I am compelled to reply.

I highly doubt the stories of sweatshop workers in dungeons gaming all day. More likely, these are people who would make $.50/day makings shoes in a factory or make $1/day sitting in front of a computer doing the mundane repetitive task of killing the same mob over and over again. They SHOULD make $1/day because it takes a bit more skill to be an efficient gold farmer than it does to thread a needle on the sole of a shoe. Should they make more than $1/day? No way. Not when their rent is $20/month...

Don't be fooled by the idea that people who make $1/day are tormented slaves in buildings lit by torches... I mean, the torch smoke wouldn't be good for the computers... You're talking about another economy where $1 is MUCH more than it is here. Did you know that the average annual income of a Mexican is about $900... And Mexico is right next door.

Does buying gold screw with the economy? Sure it does. Does that mean you shouldn't do it? Not really. Is it a fact of life that people who have real life money will be envied by those who don't? Yep. And will your not buying gold stop the gold sellers from selling? Nope. Because there will always be people like me who make good money at a real job that will be willing to pay a little extra to advance.

Interestingly, I have never bought gold, but if I ever needed to, I wouldn't hesitate...

Sadly, I am compelled to reply.

I highly doubt the stories of sweatshop workers in dungeons gaming all day. More likely, these are people who would make $.50/day makings shoes in a factory or make $1/day sitting in front of a computer doing the mundane repetitive task of killing the same mob over and over again. They SHOULD make $1/day because it takes a bit more skill to be an efficient gold farmer than it does to thread a needle on the sole of a shoe. Should they make more than $1/day? No way. Not when their rent is $20/month...

Don't be fooled by the idea that people who make $1/day are tormented slaves in buildings lit by torches... I mean, the torch smoke wouldn't be good for the computers... You're talking about another economy where $1 is MUCH more than it is here. Did you know that the average annual income of a Mexican is about $900... And Mexico is right next door.

Does buying gold screw with the economy? Sure it does. Does that mean you shouldn't do it? Not really. Is it a fact of life that people who have real life money will be envied by those who don't? Yep. And will your not buying gold stop the gold sellers from selling? Nope. Because there will always be people like me who make good money at a real job that will be willing to pay a little extra to advance.

Interestingly, I have never bought gold, but if I ever needed to, I wouldn't hesitate...

1. You really don't have real facts.

2. Sure they might be making more. But a little more fair doesn't make it fair.

3. Kids could be doing this for long hours. I don't give a crap is they are making 2x times their parents. If they are kids and being forced to do this, it's wrong.

4. We aren't even sure how much money the people are really getting paid. I'm sure that the people who run gold farming/selling operations aren't very ethical people. Their whole business practice is based off violating Blizzard's rules. Most of the time unethical people in business are unethical with their employees so the employees are probably getting screwed.

5. I hope you tell us when you buy gold so we can report you to Blizzard.

This is always an interesting topic. And one neither side of the debate actually has much info on.

First off though I will say that there is absolutely no reason to buy gold in WoW. With a little bit of research (looking at the auction house) you will be able to find plenty of ways to make some cash. I just got back on my lock this weekend cuz the weather was crappy and I couldn't really do anything. Leveled from 48-50 (love that rest bonus) and in that same time made about 45g. So I took that and the 150g I had already and bought patterns for the entire felcloth set and the pattern for Robe of the Void =) Now I just need to actually go pick up tailoring.

Well anyways, about farming. Yes they work long hour days. Usually about 12 hours or so. And yeah 85-90 hour weeks suck I've done that. However that's nothing out of the ordinary, many people work long hours.

Now the pay. Well by our standards its abismal. No arguement there. However you can't look at it in terms of our standards. In the countries that these people are living, that money (no matter how small) can mean the difference between eating and starving.

This too is nothing new. We may disagree with their wages. However you cannot really blame the companies. Blame their governments for not instituting laws to protect their citizens.

It could be argued that those same companies are actually doing a service. These are people that may starve without that job. We're talking countries where its not uncommon for 14 year old girls to enter prostitution simply to eat (or because their parents are forcing them to, to pay the bills). Point is, right or wrong there is a lot of worse things they could be doing.

Lastly I saw this, maybe some of you might find it interesting.

Taken from alleged interview--
"Smooth Criminal tells me the hiring process at his Indonesian farm is through word of mouth, and the farm turns down 10 to 20 people a day. But that process can get difficult, especially in poor countries.

Adrian2001, a manager for Gamer's Loot, says of his hiring process, "Trust is most important." He gives an example: "I have one boy here [in Romania] that raises goats. So imagine someone who has never seen a PC in his life. I hired the boy because his family is very poor, and he is honest. I tested him by putting money where he might notice it. The money never moved from the spot. I do that with everyone I hire."

For all the so-called virtual sweatshops discovered, a lot of these young men and boys don't mind their jobs, and they aren't exactly working in sweatshop conditions. There's a world of difference between making sneakers and watching bots fight all day. However, they are underpaid, or as Smooth Criminal puts it, "They get paid dirt. But dirt is good where they live."

I guess my point is, don't just hate the farmers/buyers. The real evil is much deeper. Blame the governments that let these things happen. Blame the living conditions that make jobs like these desirable. You know, in another thread someone asked what else besides WoW could you spend $15 a month for and get a better deal. I remember something on T.V. about the price of a cup of coffee a day and saving a young kids life and all that.

One last note, to all those that are bashing batoviking. I hope none of you are wearing Nike shoes. You might want to read that little tag that says, "Made in China"

The problem with this line of logic is that you are assuming that the farmers love their job and are being saved from their evil governments.

This is again an assumption and not fact.

The fact is that we don't have facts on gold farming conditions, wages, governments, income, cost of living, age, etc.

We can assume we are doing the world a service by buying gold and get a warm fuzzy feeling because we might have fed someone, but at the same time we can also assume that there are people getting screwed and working long hours they don't want to for crap wages as well.

In my opinion it's better to be on the safe side since we don't have the facts.

Thanks for the misquote. Here's one for ya
I make love to my dog every night. He's so much more submissive than my mother.

I was asked several times already about this post in IM's, Emails etc... if the subject of "Buying Gold" is or is not allowed on these boards.

The Rule is this:
7) Absolutely no posting of sales, promotional guides, links to auctions or anything in the nature of increasing personal income will be tolerated. The post will be automatically edited or deleted at the discretion of the moderator/admin. If the poster is a "new user" the name will be banned, if known user the post will be moved to the Admin Trash Bin and the author of the post will be e-mail by either the Moderator/Administrator and reminded the first time about the Rules of Conduct for these boards. If no e-mail is available, the author will be banned until he/she e-mails The Druids Grove Staff for proper explanation/action. There is no joking around when it deals with these matters.

The Druid Grove is a "No Solicitation Forum"!

Have to understand that we have this policy for 2 reasons. If we as a community do not make money off "Advertisements" on our site then these %@#$'s can't either (simply put!). We as a Grove/Community depend on Donations (http://thedruidsgrove.org/elements/donate/donate.htm) from our community members to run our Community Site.

Second reason: We cannot condone or allow on these forums the buying or selling of Gold Sales etc.. because this is in direct violation of Terms of Service (EULA) which Blizzard and or other companies have put forth.

I realize that the second reason that I have listed "is not" always followed by all community members.. but the majority of our community members do follow this rule and those that do not probably keeps it quiet if they have violated the User Agreement of Blizzard. Those that wish to share or just ask "Why" will be subject to the majority of those that feel that it is "Wrong".

So we move to this rule:

9.) The Grove is a community. If for any reason we feel a member of the community is creating problems that upset the balance of our community, we will take direct action against this member. This includes and is not limited to "Directly attacking a member of the Druids Grove". This includes but is not limited to reposting of a topic that has been removed. This includes but is not limited to recreating user accounts after you have been suspended or banned.

With this in mind.. when you change your venue of discussion to direct attack on an individual.. you are Wrong!

y take on this subject is simple:

Just because you have a gun doesn't mean you should use it to get what you want... IE: If you want something... work for it like the rest of us slobs do, you will be more satisfied in the end.

The problem with this line of logic is that you are assuming that the farmers love their job and are being saved from their evil governments.

This is again an assumption and not fact.

The fact is that we don't have facts on gold farming conditions, wages, governments, income, cost of living, age, etc.

We can assume we are doing the world a service by buying gold and get a warm fuzzy feeling because we might have fed someone, but at the same time we can also assume that there are people getting screwed and working long hours they don't want to for crap wages as well.

In my opinion it's better to be on the safe side since we don't have the facts.

This is all valiant and kind, which is fine to strive for, but as someone else pointed out, I hope you don't wear Nikes or drive a car. Do you know exactly where that GAP shirt came from and what kind of conditions the people who made it work in? You're absolutely right about our not having the facts, but just because we heard someone say something about this doesn't mean we should take it as gospel. Given that, you should treat it as you would a shirt from the GAP. You don't know where that came from, you don't know where the gold came from...

It's a violation of the EULA because...

1. Blizzard writes all kinds of violations into their EULA. It's a violation to attack some mobs while others have already engaged them... What the????

2. Blizzard doesn't control it, and anything outside of the control of the company, they don't want. They even have specific rules about fansites as was stated earlier in this thread... Were the Druid's Grove to bash Blizzard, I would have to assume they are operating illegal operations in China... =)

So to say that these companies are pirates and brigands because they do something that is in violation of the EULA doesn't hold much weight with me.

The way I see it, if the US can pay Indian tech workers $1000/mo (for a good IT worker!), and everyone jumps on the bandwagon to start outsourcing, there is no difference. This is a smaller scale with smaller money, but the concepts are all the same.

It's a thing I like to call capitalism... and I love it...

-Funk

This is all valiant and kind, which is fine to strive for, but as someone else pointed out, I hope you don't wear Nikes or drive a car. Do you know exactly where that GAP shirt came from and what kind of conditions the people who made it work in? You're absolutely right about our not having the facts, but just because we heard someone say something about this doesn't mean we should take it as gospel. Given that, you should treat it as you would a shirt from the GAP. You don't know where that came from, you don't know where the gold came from...

It's a violation of the EULA because...

1. Blizzard writes all kinds of violations into their EULA. It's a violation to attack some mobs while others have already engaged them... What the????

2. Blizzard doesn't control it, and anything outside of the control of the company, they don't want. They even have specific rules about fansites as was stated earlier in this thread... Were the Druid's Grove to bash Blizzard, I would have to assume they are operating illegal operations in China... =)

So to say that these companies are pirates and brigands because they do something that is in violation of the EULA doesn't hold much weight with me.

The way I see it, if the US can pay Indian tech workers $1000/mo (for a good IT worker!), and everyone jumps on the bandwagon to start outsourcing, there is no difference. This is a smaller scale with smaller money, but the concepts are all the same.

It's a thing I like to call capitalism... and I love it...

-Funk

Your saying that I can't make a point becuase I could possibly own something created in poor conditions. This is not a valid way of arguing. It's basically saying, " I can do wrong because someone else does wrong."

If I found out something I owned or bought (brand name, company) did that sort of thing I would not buy it ever again.

P.S. GAP sucks - You seriously think I wear that stuff :texla:

P.P.S I agree with capitalism but not exploitation.

Everyone can continue to argue this but I've said my viewpoints enough.

The Grove is a community. If for any reason we feel a member of the community is creating problems that upset the balance of our community, we will take direct action against this member. This includes and is not limited to "Directly attacking a member of the Druids Grove". This includes but is not limited to reposting of a topic that has been removed. This includes but is not limited to recreating user accounts after you have been suspended or banned.So ban me for an attack in the light-moderation section of the forum. Show us how fluffy fluffy you expect this place to be.

So ban me for an attack in the light-moderation section of the forum. Show us how fluffy fluffy you expect this place to be.

Always someone that feels that its about them.. The Rules of the Forums are listed here (http://wow.forums.thedruidsgrove.org/showthread.php?t=8002) which were Posted on 10-03-2004.

As for my response.. to your statement "No area of the Grove is exempt from Personal attacks.." ...is that enough fluff for you.. mmmm.. actual that sounds good.. now where did I put that peanut butter. /sarcasm off

And FYI.. (Anyone).. Banning is a last resort; we would most likely PM you first and give ya a warning.. usually we find out that they just had a bad day and regret the violation and we leave it at that.. of course then you have those that just request banning.. like they are trying to call a bluff or something; we will just grant them their wish if they push the issue and even if that happens is just a 2-3 day suspension to give them time to cool off. Hell.. we all get mad especially when its something we believe in.. thats why Instant Perm Banning is reserved for Gold Advertisers because I friggen hate them with a passion ;)

Sobe

Its real easy for people to take a stand when its convenient for them. Everyone wants to think they did something to make a difference. But most people turn the other way when it comes to mean that to continue the fight brings inconvenience to themselves. That is the problem with people nowadays.

Everyone wants to play Captain America until it becomes a mission of self sacrifice. The statement about the shoes is an example of this. How many people walk around bare foot because they know that just about every shoe company outsources to Chinese labor? Not many, if any.

But at the same time everyone is outraged about how people of other nationalities are treated.

If you want to take a stand, excellent. But don't go half way. Not to point anyone out, just jee wiz info. But in my time living over in Japan and Southeast Asia, that seems to be one of the largest complaints I tend to witness about Americans. We are all so willing to help out when its convenient (cough..oil..cough..strategic ally..cough..international public relations..cough).

The thing that should really piss people off though, is that you really have no choice. I put you in a position you couldn't change with my shoe comment. Of course you are going to wear or use something that came from those same conditions. You need clothing, its a basic need of survival. Well what choice do you have then? That's why you should be angry.

Everything, even many American companies are totally outsourced in their production segments. So its screwing two groups. Its screwing those underpriviledged members of other countries which have to accept crap jobs and it screws the American people that really need to work.

Of course, people don't want to pay high prices. So if all our shoes and clothing and everything else that comes from overseas were to be produced in the States, what would happen? Higher production cost= higher prices. Of course you all know that its high school economics class. But would you pay that price? I can say ok because I have a steady job, with great job security. It would suck, but I'm taken care of. However most aren't as lucky. What about them? (example the people of New Orleans 9th Ward)

Nobody cares because it either seems too distant, it calls for them to change or they just don't think they can do anything.

Unfortunately in today's society fueled by business venture, capitalism=exploitation. Not to say communism is a good thing, far from it. But what happened to helping out the little guys?

So anyways I apologize if anyone is offended by this post, that's not my intent. I'm just trying to make a point. Its something that the longer I stay away form the States, the more its bearing on my mind (and conscience). I'm not trying to point fingers at anyone, just trying to point out the attitudes of which many people (myself included) have been guilty.

On another note, NRA will drive America to the ground if we aren't careful. I don't know if its even an option anymore since so many people have guns in the states (usually the people that shouldn't have them it seems). But I can say that from living in Japan, I will never raise a family in the States because of that. Its just so much safer without them. Most people honestly have no need for them, but its some liberating feeling of ownership that drives their arguement. But then again like I said, most people aren't willing to sacrifice their own individual freedom for something that would really benefit the whole. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. But as long as people feel a need for power, they will take the means to gain it.

I will really stop now. No more ranting. I'll even play myself a tune. :boohoo:

Heh, got warned yesterday.

9) The Grove is a community. If for any reason we feel a member of the community is creating problems that upset the balance of our community, we will take direct action against this member. This includes and is not limited to "Directly attacking a member of the Druids Grove". This includes but is not limited to reposting of a topic that has been removed. This includes but is not limited to recreating user accounts after you have been suspended or banned.

This is an official warning. Please refrain from harassing and attacking "batoviking".I find it really cute that you decided to change my tag as well. It's childish, at best.

I do nothing but contribute here. Only once have I asked for significant help.

The community looses.

**Self-imposed indefinite ban**

I have requested a permanent deletion of my login.

It's pretty simple: the rules apply to everyone. Whatever else it might be, mentioning that you bought gold is not against the forum rules. It would have been preferable to express your opinion without attacking other posters. We've given you a large amount of leeway to stop said attacks.

Locking this thread.