Of me to ask each of the druids in my guild to have Nature's Grace (at minimum) for raiding. We're an MC raiding guild (just moving into BWL) and with the recent patch many people are trying out different specs which I greatly encourage. My only problem is that our guild is going to be a little low on the healing and therefore want to make sure that heals that are supposed to go off... do.. and that should they be dotted or at the very least have some white damage occuring to them, they can heal through it. I know... if they are getting hit in the raid something must be wrong, but I'm more concerned about some of the content, such AQ20 where there are spawns and waves of attacks. I've gotten a lot of push back from one of our Balance druids who says he's never had it before and why should he now? But we have lost some priests in the past few days.

I used to be very active here and respect the opinions of all of the members here. Your thoughts about this would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Ephrim

Depends on the guild, some guilds only want Restoration Druids so your requirement of Nature's Grace doesn't seem too bad. I don't know that it's as important as going full 41 points into Restoration though. I don't think it's worth it to go 20 points into Balance just for that skill if you want to be a healer or a feral druid though.

Pretty much I would say no. Anyone who forces specs will have issues keeping people in the guild. Best way to drive a Feral Druid away is tell him how to spec.

Pretty much I would say no. Anyone who forces specs will have issues keeping people in the guild. Best way to drive a Feral Druid away is tell him how to spec.

I agree. If you have too many ferals/moonkins you should recruit more dedicated healers instead of forcing hybrid classes to specc healing.

If nothing else.. it makes for a better guild morale and people will likely specc a certain way, to help the guild raid progress, of their own choice. If you understand what I mean. :)

Yes to above. Have we all forgotten we are a hybrid class, not priests. If you want more priests, recruit priests. We are in the game as a hybrid and our skills benefit the raid as hybrids. You might have Oomkins, Ferals and restos but in the end they can all function to some degree in each others realm. So to handicapp a Druid with restrictions, IMHO, is to handicapp the guild. However, I would have no problems leaving my guild if the CL asked " I need you to respec Resto". Ya, kiss it. And chances are if guilds would let druids perform the tasked they wanted and recruited them based on those tasks there would be more harmony. Want resto, recruit resto..want feral recruit feral. But don't overlook the importance of both. Many guilds on my server only want resto druids. Those guilds miss out on party buffs such as LoTP, ILoTP, Mangle, and NI which are great buffs that benefit all.
my 2 cent

I think that most reasonable minded Druids know that at times they will have to heal no matter their spec.. IMO forcing spec. is never a good thing. You will only succeed in driving people away.

However if you have a druid that is balance or feral and simply refuses to heal when needed, then IMO they are a selfish player and maybe they should go.

Also if you should find that having ferals and balance spec druids healing is not getting the job done make it known that you will be recruiting more dedicated healers. However before you do that make sure you can prove that the current raid healing is lacking.

I have not been in Nax but I have healed in MC, BWL, AQ20 and AQ 40 with a full feral spec and havent had any trouble. Mainly because i know i need to heal and im prepared for it.

Why would a Balance druid *not* want Nature's Grace? How odd. My guild allows different specs, but you get more hardcore points with the desired spec.

The minimum spell a druid should have (but not required to have), is Nature's Swiftness. That's a proven life saver.

Hm, that's kinda an odd spell to require isn't it? I mean, all the balance druids should have it already (why wouldn't they, very nice talent), but it'd be pretty hard for the ferals to grab that... I can see requiring improved rejuv, naturalist, and imp motw, I admit I see nothing wrong in that if you've got like, no druids with those talents (that's pretty rare though), because they're obtainable. I can also understanding recommending talents up to NS for your druids, seeing what happens then. Some are bound to step up and at least be willing to go hybrid instead of full blance/feral.

Couple more things... try and be a little patient about raid healing right now, you might try and just make do with what specs you have. Remember that with BC coming out in a month, a lot of folks are just trying out different specs and having fun pvping with em. Also remember that since the patch, raid healing might not be on par not because of spec, but because of the different uis and mods floating around that people aren't used to, plus, I dunno, I'm noticing a ****load more lag in MC since the patch, that could be an issue with your healers as well.

We do MC with... 1 full balance druid, 2 full ferals, 1 feral/resto hybrid, and if we're lucky, 1 full resto, and we seem to do perfectly fine (we're not geared out at all either, just cleared MC for the first time right before the patch), it just all comes down to relying on each druid to step up and put on healing gear and heal their little feral/oomkin hearts out when need be. They/we can do it well, if they're smart. :)

Class Leader here. We have currently got 6 druids in our guild because I went away one weekend and my second in command decided to tell all druids to go resto or get kicked. Needless to say that when I eventually logged on I had a big suprise. The standard procedure for our guild is that we invite people we need. If a mage leaves, hes slot can either be taken up by a new mage or by a lock same with healers. We are actually in the process of changes class leader to look more like this: DPS Class leader,Healer Class Leader,Tank Class Leader and Hybrid Class Leader. This way a druid ,for instance, can when joining or repeccing fall into any one of these classes but we only invite new memebers if any one of these classes have a shortcoming. On that note Im gonna be Hybrid Class Leader so ill have shammies at my beck and call :)

The last time I had anything to say in a guild, we used the practice of setting up a few alternative PvE raid builds that we recommended people to choose between. In particular, we started when we had trouble getting druids because we (like most did) demanded healing specc... But this was before Innervate became a skill.

Anyway, getting - and keeping - healers always seems to be the problem for most guilds that want to achieve something, so I'd say: let the talents loose! Allow diversity in order to keep satisfaction; as things look now, some healing gear and/or enchants should be able to cover some loss a certain lack of talents could cause.

Well specs should be left to the player's choice in my opinion. the only time I would say other wise is if for the lack of a spec'ed talent caused the raid to not be able to raid. And I dont know of any talent now that would fall into that catagory. A player will do far better if he knows his skills/abilities he receives from his spec instead of being forced to spec some other way. As he'll tend not to use those abilities he is unfarmilar with and not use them to his best adavantage. If you need those balanced/feral druids for healing just tell them when they need to heal.

Thanks everyone, I greatly appreciate your input.

The way that my guild works out Spec's is at the Class Level. We've lost three of our resto druids in the past week (now we only have one who is very active) so I've asked the others to help pick up the healing slack until more Restos can be recruited. I'm the first one to say play the spec you want (I'm balance spec'ed atm 28/0/13) and that we're a hybrid class; but unlike our other balance druid I don't go Moonkin and focus solely on DPS. For our two feral druids, after putting the 5 points in Furor, I don't see why they wouldn't put the other 5 Points into Nature's Grace to help the raid in its time of need. They're both cat-feral so they shouldn't have much problem moving back from the target and helping to heal when needed.

I don't see this as forcing a spec on anyone. All I'm asking is for people to spend 5 points in a talent that allows for secure healing in emergency situations.

I should also have noted that we have DPS-adins and a Shadow Priest in our raids, but even they are asked to put a few points here and there (nothing major) to help with raid healing / viability.

Cheers,
Ephrim

Wait. I think you mean Naturalist, not Nature's Grace. Am I right?

Nature's Focus? Nature's Grace = balance talent....

...at any rate if someone tells me how to spec I'll look for a new guild, but that's me...

Hmm yeah, something tells you mean Naturalist, which I have noo problem with requiring, it's a damn nice talent anyways. :)

I think we're all taking this a little far. He didn't want to force a spec, he wanted to require a little extra healing. I'm a class lead myself, so I might be a little biased here though. As a note, I'm full balance (42/0/9).

No matter how we spec, we are a healing class. When healing is needed, we're going to be healing in a raid.... no matter what spec you are. We should at least toss a couple of talents in that tree to be better at both aspects of our class... healing and damage.

So for ferals, it's down right silly not to put 5pts in naturalist. Naturalist is now natural weapons and imp HT... So it's probably easy to convince them. Trying to convince any feral druid to go any farther is a stretch right now. Mangle more or less describes feral druids.

Now balance is a different story. We can stay completely out of the resto tree and be perfectly happy. I actually have 2 resto druids not pick up Naturalist. Something I was rather shocked to find out.

IMHO: We're a hybrid healing class, and Naturalist is one of those key healing talents we all need (or at least 4pts in it). We should spec to be great at one aspect and be good at the other.

With all that said, I'm sorry I sound a little biased here. This has just been a little bit of a hot issue in my guild right now. We don't force spec... nor do we even ask someone to spec a certain way... and I'm not about to start. I'm just a little annoyed at my druids who didn't pick up Naturalist.

Not going to argue the value of the talent, and I understand why some guilds would do that, but it's just a sticking point I have, I wouldn't be around long enough to find out which talent is required, etc....I guess it's just the idea that bothers me...but like I said that's just me....

No matter how we spec, we are a healing class. When healing is needed, we're going to be healing in a raid.... no matter what spec you are. We should at least toss a couple of talents in that tree to be better at both aspects of our class... healing and damage.



Last time I checked we were a hybrid class.


So for ferals, it's down right silly not to put 5pts in naturalist. Naturalist is now natural weapons and imp HT... So it's probably easy to convince them. Trying to convince any feral druid to go any farther is a stretch right now. Mangle more or less describes feral druids.

I aggree.



IMHO: We're a hybrid healing class, and Naturalist is one of those key healing talents we all need (or at least 4pts in it). We should spec to be great at one aspect and be good at the other.

Name any game with a hybrid class that does not have healing.
Now IMHO: Hybrid means everything and includes but is not bound to healing.I can at least agree with your latter statement and that is mainly the reason why I am Feral/resto.On that subject ... not all feral druid can "pop out to heal the raid" as they put it.I have been asked to do this in several occassions with PuGs while tanking multiple mobs and every single time I die within seconds of going caster form.

In closing.
Choose you own style of play.Choose your own talents, and /gquit as soon as you are asked to respecc.

On a short note. In a months time we will have the oppertunity to get an additional 10 points yet most of us forgot about that.You can spec now and make provisions for the future thus costing you less on a respecc cause you forgot about those extra points (in my case i respecc regurarly so this is a moo (made a joke) t point)

Name any game with a hybrid class that does not have healing.
EQ Bards

Actually EQ Bards have a healing song.

I don't think it's fair to require anyone who you didn't recruit as a healer specifically to take a particular spec or talent. However, there's nothing wrong with asking, especially if it's on a temporary basis (and particularly if you're willing to pay for it).

Assuming you're talking about Naturalist, further, I think this is just about the least oppressive talent you could request from level 60s. Most Feral druids are 0/41/10 right now anyway to take it, Resto druids are going to take it, certainly, and assuming a Balance druid isn't going to flatly refuse to heal period, asking them to go 41/0/10 to take it isn't really out of line. They still get their Treants.

I'd go ahead and ask. Ferals and Restos should want it anyway, and I think the only possible resistance you'd get would be from a Balance-happy druid, and you could likely work with them.

Actually EQ Bards have a healing song.
Having a healing song is not the same as being able to heal. Warriors get a lot of +health regen on their equipment, does that mean they can heal too? All classes can use bandages, does that mean they all have healing? EQ Bards are a hybrid class that is not a healing class.

Well then Paladins in EQ probably aren't healing either if you want to limit it. Bards have a spell that heals in fact all their spells are based on songs but to each their own. Bards do heal in EQ, it's not great but it's a heal.

And my enchanter could put a bandage on someone too. It's not great but it's a heal. Does that make my enchanter a healer?

Everyone that have healing spells is a healing class!

Now stop playing the game and start healing meh so I can play mine instead!

:D

I'd say give people incentive to spec a certain way but don't force certain specs to stay in the guild. I rarely see any guild do this sort of thing these days for no known reason.

Example: Tell him that he's fine to spec however he wants but if he can spec with Nature's Grace, he'll be rewarded with X DKP after 10 raids, X is up to you to determine as an encouragement to him..

You mean bribe him?

Dunno if I like that way of leading a guild either tbh.

If you're a guild that wants to make progress in PvE, then yes, forcing certain specs will probably help. However, most people who want to progress will most likely spec in a way that will make this easier on everybody without being forced.

I was feral/resto (30/21) prior to the patch and Naxx. Once Naxx came out, healing was a lot more difficult. The encounters were more demanding (in some cases) and so I decided to respec full resto for the sake of progression. Ultimately, it depends on the individual person and whether or not he/she is willing to respec. But if you're a guild that is trying to progress with new instances/raids, then your guildmates should all be willing to do what it takes.

Btw, my current spec was not for raiding purposes. I merely wanted to shift into tree form and log out in IF (quitting my druid).

Acctually I think a guild that are cool with ferals and moonkins playing like they want and not forcing stuff will progress faster as it will boost overall morale and make the ferals and moonkins more willing to off-spec for certain encounters.

I know I would (and I have). It's easy psychology really. If I was in a guild that let's me specc, play and raid how I want, I would be more deticated to that guild as I know they are ok if I specc back to feral and I can roll on feral loot.

Forcing stuff on people makes a bad guild atmosphere imo. :)

Acctually I think a guild that are cool with ferals and moonkins playing like they want and not forcing stuff will progress faster as it will boost overall morale and make the ferals and moonkins more willing to off-spec for certain encounters.....Forcing stuff on people makes a bad guild atmosphere imo. :)

I agree. I was just saying that people will tend to respec on their own during the learning phases of new encounters (if they're serious about progressing).

As for gear, feral druids shouldn't have problems getting loot as most rogue sets have better attributes anyways. Moonkins get screwed a lot b/c they have to usually wait til all dps casters get loot.

With stacking HoT's i dont think it is as nearly as important in Raids, Its still a great Oh Sh!= button but i spec'd away from it to a moonkin build with DreamState and Intensity and i Love it. With Moonfury my heals are still cheap and the 2k nukes are lovely. and I now have more +healing then ever with the new balance talants, between 650-700 depending on my gear

You mean bribe him?

Dunno if I like that way of leading a guild either tbh.

I don't see it that way..

Say you're working for a company in California.. and your boss offers you a position in Alaska for 5 years.. with double your current pay. You'd hate living in Alaska for 5 years but the extra pay is very tempting.

Or an even simpler and practical example..

Your toilet's clogged.. you call up the plumber and ask him to fix it for free. He has no incentive to help you for free and refuses. Then you offer to pay him and he suggests an amount. You accept it and pay him - he arrives and fixes it.

Capitalism FTW.

Why would any druid (or other class) bother with respeccing at this moment when the expansion is waiting outside the door? Make sure to keep as many as you can in guild, all will be needed for those 5-10-25 man runs later on.

Keep guildies happy, especially the druids.

During all my raiding, leader and lead, Ive never listened to or given any remarks on talent specs, more then questioning those who question druid talent trees.

(I still wish ferals would get rid of the innervate, so the nagging would end, guess it never will)
"AH is ------- > there - buy a mana pot!"
"preist trainer is ------ >there - train mana efficency!"

The talent that I was asking for was Nature's Focus (Tier 2 Resto Talent that allows you to heal through white damage).

I think that the focus here has been lost a little bit. No where was I forcing people into a spec (ie Ferals and Kins into Restos), all I was asking was for the druid members to help out a bit and heal.

We're a hybrid class I agree 100%, but any druid that doesn't pop out of moonkin or kitty cat form to help with some rejuvs or regrowths, an innervate or a NS + HT Heal bomb is just greedy and not working for the sake of the raid. Most druids are going to have 5 pts in resto anyways. Balance folks are going to have IMotW while Ferals are going to have Furor. I was asking the druids in the guild to give a hand (while we recruit people who enjoy full healing specs) and put 5 points into a talent that would only help the guild. As class Leader I'm the one that Respecs out of my own pocket to Full Resto when we're down members or I see our healing attendance lax. I let people play with the playstyle that they like, but insist that they focus not only on DPSing the target but also, keeping the raid standing. Having this talent (10points in Resto) still allows the ferals to Mangle and Balance folks to have the Treants (which lets face it has no raid utility).

To all those people that say, "We're a hybrid class" I've said a few times now that I understand that.... but isn't helping to heal when needed part of the hybrid nature? At the moment I'm 38/0/13 and don't exempt myself from what I ask of others.

The whole reason that I was asking this was because I got into a HUGE debate with a Balance Druid (like myself) that has the spec 50/0/1 (seriously thats his spec) that he felt I was forcing him into a roll that he didn't want to play. Now after reading all of these responses I feel justified with my request. We're hybrid and if he doesn't want to help pick up where the raid is lacking (which is healing for the moment and not DPS) then, he's not really playing a hybrid... now is he?

Cheers,
Thank you.
Ephrim

Huh? Natures Focus is a PvP skill. Hardly any PvE use from that at all. Your ferals are better off with Naturalist imo.

Agreed. Naturalist is a far, far more useful talent for PvE.