sadly i see WoW going the same route the EQ did with the never ending exansions in the near future where each release will make the prior game content worthless unless you are playing for the pure PvE full content of the game

I don't see it as worthless. The Outlands is a cool place, and leveling to 70 will still take some time, even if the cap is raised. So you'll still get to experience the zones and quests.

The only thing that may get trivialized is the "endgame" raids and gear, and frankly, I like Blizzard's approach to that. In EQ, it literally can take you years to gear up for the newer expansions, working your way up the food chain. It's really pretty sad. (I've seen raiding guilds in EQ that are 4-6 expansions behind and don't have much chance of catching up.) World of Warcraft has so far skipped that by giving you a clean slate with BC.

Plus, WoW is not even close to EQ's 13 (soon to be 14) expansions. So far WoW has had one expansion in 2.5ish years, which is actually kinda low. EQ has had around 2 expansions a year, though they're slowing down now.

well here is the problem... which all MMORPGs are doing with these expansions...

and Blizzard is following the same suit.

intial game comes out... the best gear, content is end game for that game release.

next expansion comes out...

the COMMON world drops, easy quest rewards are of better value then the end game of that prior game release.

now, no one wants inital content, because they can skip it entirly except to lvl just the minimum to get to the new expansion zones and content.

so now you have an entire release base/zones/raids/instance, that sit dorment, no one goes there, and that portion of the game goes away.

EQ started this with exp releases once every 18 months, then went to once a year, then currently with the release every 6 months.

many of the newer games are doing this also, expansions start comming out faster and faster to give new content that is aimed at the high end guild/palyers, while the bugs are left and ignored.

Overall Blizz is pretty good about addressing bugs, especially ones that even close to threaten class balance.

In terms of gear progression, if the gear in the XPAC were not better than current end game, why get the XPAC at all? If it required people to go through current end game to deal with the difficulty of the XPAC why would casuals do it at all?

<--- core gamer, if you play a game, in my opinion, you should do it 100%, without skipping content.

once again my opinion. i beta tested for blizz way back for Dialo, D2, and D2 exp... and yes i see them donig the same thing here.

the issue, being. the designers are kiling the core game with the so called "advancements" i.e.. lvl cap increase, new talents, new recipies..

examples...

look at the value of alchemy now... worthless..

Alchemy is FAR from worthless.

It's not as beneficial as it was prior to the change, but I still have people asking for all kinds of pots & elixirs.

As per "killing" the core game. They haven't killed anything. As with anything, as new things are introduced the old is passed by, especially when the benefits of the new stuff is so much greater than the old.

There's nothing "dead" about the core game. Old dungeons, etc, sure are left unentered. I don't see how that is "killing" the game.

@ Weasley:
Did you clear Nax? AQ40?

There's some content I'll never see.....The guild I was in before the xpac never go to AQ40 and would have failed miserably in Nax. At this point I'm content NOT to raid and just have fun with 5 mans and perhaps the occassional 10 man. I don't see why I should have to be dragged through 40 man content to then enjoy the xpacs.

Now I hope you all see why I respect and love Big9er so much XD

When I first started raiding I knew this was what I wanted to do. Me and 39 other people just playing a fun game and getting some cool looking gear at the same time. Unfortunately I soon realized that with all the stuff I do, I couldn't raid everyday. I didn't do much of BWL or any of AQ40 or Naxx. Like him I'm content with not completing all the high end stuff.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with playing a game to the extent you want to play.

/happygrouphugtime

see that is the issue i am alread pointing to.

I want to see these old places, but tell me how many other people on one server (sadly PvP which makes it harder)

are wanting and willing to go that same route. not a one, all you hear now is. kara... nothing else.

if your lucky enough to get into a large enough guild that does have enough people to push a large raid its great, but sadly WoW is lacking on that. the servers population lowers and interest in older raids and zones is gone.

hell i want to go just to see some of the enviorment and the actual content that evolves the game story line.

which just will not happen where i am now unless we rebuild and get lucky enough to find like minded people.

hence, new guild, and trying, and still breaks down to those same issues. no one wants to go, they want kara or nothing which is truely sad.

as for alchemy being worthless.

how much have you made comparied to what you did prior to TBC? TBC and the new patches have basicly made even flask attanable from vendors, and some quests give them away.

there are to many alchemist types out there that you see continued spam giving free transmute just to see if they can get that next skill up, or pray for transmute mastery to give them that extra primal.

personnaly i love raiding, i play the game to see everything in it. I started playing wow just for that perpose, the raiding, and the content. the way questing is done and the story line behind it.

I truely hate the grinding for this and that. instance for rep i can handle, but just contuned grid get old.

I left EQ after going from start to finish up to exp 12... it got old fast, so WoW is wher ei went looking for the 100% al round game that it is.

its finding other that want that same experiance thats a pain. yeah most of the old raid areas are worthless drop wise, and old.

but tell me this... a year ago hitting MC and surviving the entire raid would be a hard fought thing, and everyone there would have enjoyed the hell out of being able to.

now you can pretty much clear the whole thing with 5-10 people based on time and the want to.

(yes i really want to stand over the corpse of those naga that killed me in a raid and dance on top of them and laugh cause its there and i would like to see it)

if its part of the game and the storyline related to my toon, yup i wanna be there, and see it fully

I split this off from the other thread since it seems to be going a bit off-topic. :)

off topic never!!!

we would never hi jack a thread

You know what weasel?

I thought the same way. I wanted to see Naxx and the last few bosses in AQ40 because I never got there before the expansion. Then a friends guild went BWL and AQ40 just for kicks and they invited me.
After 4 hours in BWL and 2 evenings in AQ40 I can tell you: it is not as interesting as you would think. The tactics are still tough to master and the instances are still hard because of that. But as long as everyone knows what to do it really is boring.
Now I actually regret wasting my time going there, because most of the time I just wanted to fake a disconnect and just do something... you know ... fun.

yeah that i can understand, thats why i left EQ for wow.

did endgame all the way, then went back and was doing content i missed. and it got boring.

so i came to wow after talking to alot that left EQ for WoW and to see all the great stuff they are talking about.

but i think my error was a low population server that is PvP with very little alliance activity.

but hey, heres to just plan having fun =P

I agree with weasel, I too am disapointed becouse I havent seen any of the old pre bc raid instances, it seems so stupid to me that all that content lies ther with no one bothering even to do anything about it. I personally would make Tier 4 available only through upgrades of the Tier 3 items... but hey thats just my oppinion.

I agree with weasel, I too am disapointed becouse I havent seen any of the old pre bc raid instances, it seems so stupid to me that all that content lies ther with no one bothering even to do anything about it. I personally would make Tier 4 available only through upgrades of the Tier 3 items... but hey thats just my oppinion.

Are you kidding? Think about the impact that would have on sales. You have to think about this from Blizzard's end as a for-profit business. While there certainly is a large customer base of serious, high end raiders who might be angry because the playing field is leveled with the new expansion, I have to think the bulk of their 9 million customers, all of whom they want to convince to buy every expansion, would feel left behind with a progressive gear system and lose interest.

As a 43 year old professional and father of two (about to be three) getting into Kara right now has been about all I can get done since BC came out. Personally, I was thrilled when I could quest and run instances in Outlands and be geared in a few weeks as well (better) than the guys who had cleared Naxx. Clearing Naxx and seeing that content was their reward for pushing hard, just as seeing the Black Temple and killing Illidan is their reward in BC. I wish I could do it, but I have an offline life I have to live. Making a progressive gear system would risk disenfranchising people like me and losing a significant (and well paying) customer base.

Speaking of RL, I'm getting aggro right now to go work on the baby's room before I have to get ready for my next graveyard shift. TTFN.

sadly i see WoW going the same route the EQ did with the never ending exansions in the near future where each release will make the prior game content worthless unless you are playing for the pure PvE full content of the game
The biggest difference between EQ and WoW expansions: leveling up in WoW is fun, EQ was just an endless/mindless grind.

Another difference is that WoW completely trivialized all your time spent gearing up at 60 when BC was released. It really didn't matter if you were wearing all greens or all purples when you first went to Outland. Completing a quest or doing an instance might have been a little easier for the person in purples, at least initially. But by the time you were 65 most of your purples had been replaced with random greens and quest rewards. Sure, Sony keeps pumping out EQ expansions every 6 months, but they still just about require you to work through raid content in order, it's very hard to skip all but the extreme top of the raid content.

Not sure which is worse: for a guild to fall four or five expansions behind in EQ, or guilds to miss content entirely in WoW because quest gear trivializes raid gear and there's no point in doing the old raid content. I guess it's a matter of preference, but frankly I don't like either approach, which is why I quit EQ and don't see myself continuing in WoW once the next expansion is released.

Nice. I'll start playing again in January then and still be on the top of things.

Maybe I got my WoW-mojo going by that time. ;)

what it all breaks down to is a peronal preferance.

fully agree on the EQ part, 99% of the guilds are 6-8 expansions behind current. it gets boring and old.

i had a 2 box set up and could complete endgame stuff alone up to the 5th or 6th exp.

as for WoW.

believe me, 34, and got 5 kids. WoW is my only relaxation. which is why i want more content then gear.

gear is always there, same as content, gear you can pick up anytime, content you have to work to see. which currently is my personal preferance

Are you kidding? Think about the impact that would have on sales. You have to think about this from Blizzard's end as a for-profit business. While there certainly is a large customer base of serious, high end raiders who might be angry because the playing field is leveled with the new expansion, I have to think the bulk of their 9 million customers, all of whom they want to convince to buy every expansion, would feel left behind with a progressive gear system and lose interest.

As a 43 year old professional and father of two (about to be three) getting into Kara right now has been about all I can get done since BC came out. Personally, I was thrilled when I could quest and run instances in Outlands and be geared in a few weeks as well (better) than the guys who had cleared Naxx. Clearing Naxx and seeing that content was their reward for pushing hard, just as seeing the Black Temple and killing Illidan is their reward in BC. I wish I could do it, but I have an offline life I have to live. Making a progressive gear system would risk disenfranchising people like me and losing a significant (and well paying) customer base.

Speaking of RL, I'm getting aggro right now to go work on the baby's room before I have to get ready for my next graveyard shift. TTFN.


But hey, blizzard has made excellent gear available to people who are more casual players,through various professions and arena, thats why i would make tier sets available only to the most dedicated raiders. And, Naxx isnt that hard to clear at lvl 70.

Now I hope you all see why I respect and love Big9er so much XD

When I first started raiding I knew this was what I wanted to do. Me and 39 other people just playing a fun game and getting some cool looking gear at the same time. Unfortunately I soon realized that with all the stuff I do, I couldn't raid everyday. I didn't do much of BWL or any of AQ40 or Naxx. Like him I'm content with not completing all the high end stuff.

Personally I don't see anything wrong with playing a game to the extent you want to play.

/happygrouphugtime

Awwww <3 u too Trix :)

But hey, blizzard has made excellent gear available to people who are more casual players,through various professions and arena, thats why i would make tier sets available only to the most dedicated raiders. And, Naxx isnt that hard to clear at lvl 70.

No, Naxx is not that difficult at 70, nor is AQ40, BWL, etc...especially for those geared in 70 man T4 or even just heroic gear.

The point is, Blizz won't REQUIRE the running of pre xpac content to achieve current goals. That puts too much of a restriction on content.

Imagine those just starting the game with Northrend. You think they'd have to run MC for T1, then BWL for T2, Nax for T3, Kara for T4, TK/SSC for T5 and finally Hyjal & BT for T6, just to be able to get the new T7 that comes out in Northrend?

That sounds like a HUGE *ock block that would discourage more people than invite them into a "causual friendly" game.

The BULK of the WoW clients do not raid beyond 10 mans, do not see some of the higher end content, not due to ability or anything like that, but due to time investments ( or lack there of ). To further restrict future achievments by pre-req'ing past achievments would literally kill WoW.

the only limiting you will see will be within the same expansion of the events..

I.e.. kara keys to get to kara

anything outside of that is marketing sucide

Well, im a big fan of really hard games :)
I know blizzard wont make anything like that,
but thats the way i would like it.
I do understand your arguments really well :)
they have to think about the majority of players,
not just a few of us that are hardcore gamers.
:assimilat

Give the game an ending (no more expansions) ... People have the best of the best and game dies. It becomes boring fast once u completed all that stuff you have never done before. Also blizzard said they wanted to release a new expansion every year (and there right on schedule). So to me thats cool, I try and think about it like football. New players for each team new stadiums coming up and a new season to get your stats back up. I love looking at D2 now, lets go to a web site buy the best of the best gear for 10 cents a piece and then theres nothng to do after 5 minutes of seeing really big numbers, and no one to play with.

Also alot of the top end guilds that finished Black Temple complaining theres nothing to do, but I say Blizzard has done and excellent job with trying to keep the casual and hardcore gamer entertained. Also i you look at any other mmo, I have never seen such dedication and a game who actually cares about the players. (They designed in-game voice chat for group members, that says alot to me) And how, many games have the balance that wow has ? OH, and most important its more about finding dedicated players who are good, so when the next expansion comes out you have everything planned and ready to go. Set raid schedules, players your can count on, and exp.

P.S. Go play and FPS and tell me it dosent suck because your getting owned by 1, hackers and 2, people who play way to much.

With the new instances, I just hope they keep the end game "player structure" the same (i.e. 5-man heroics, 10-mans then 25-mans). I'm not sure that is the best way to do it, but when they changed from the 40-man raid a lot of strong guilds blew apart trying to adapt to the new system. :ohwell: It would be a shame to see that happen again if WotLK has another style of end-game raid.

They annoucned current sized raids and groups would persist through the next xpac.

I wish Blizz would make it feasible for those of us who really can't raid because of schedule limitations to progress to top end gear in 5 and 10 man instances. Getting 24 (or God forbid 39) other people online at a time that I can dedicate to WoW is virtually impossible for me. Why can't the devs design high end encounters (read VERY challenging) with top notch gear for smaller groups? Bigger isn't always better.

Although bigger isn't always better, it requires more teamwork and coordination and as sad as it may be for those who can't get the numbers to raid, overall it is technically harder for larger groups to successfully down a boss (ones that require good amounts of concentration).

Blizz definitely tried to tackle the problem you seemed to have with the amount of people online in TBC by using a new 25man system and the 10man system. Watching the BlizzCon Raid and Dungeon Panel @ Blizzcon, they really liked the success of the 10mans and are probably going to introduce more 10man content in WotLK because they aren't stupid. They know Kara is the most run raid instance in the game atm.

The thing with making 5man encounters that are extremely challenging and require lots of coordination and skill and ability to adapt to randomness is that it can't be too difficult that it requires a certain class makeup but I'm sure they're going to make the 5mans in WotLK have heroic difficulty and they said they are really liking the heroic badge system and are adding tons of items to it as time goes on.

I would say they do not do that 10 man top end gear because like kara was at the beginning its going to be a ridiculous group make up. So I can seem some classes not being able to go, and I agree its more about teamwork and organization.

I think new zones, quests, levels, and gear sounds alot more exciting than getting the highest level and ultimate gear then...???

If you play the game for fun, why does it matter if there is more content for more fun? Isn't that a good thing?

If you play the game for ego, well, this isn't the best activity for that.

well here is a example... as the current attitude wtih a large ammount of people in my guild and server.

- why should we work to raid in kara and other places, when if a wait a few months i can get better drops from just normal world drops and quests then i would have in there.

so now we have this great ending to the mighty push for most players to do raids that are current.

this being a huge issue in my guild atm, have already seen a few people get to the point of annoyance they have left the game.

well here is a example... as the current attitude wtih a large ammount of people in my guild and server.

- why should we work to raid in kara and other places, when if a wait a few months i can get better drops from just normal world drops and quests then i would have in there.

Why? Because you have fun doing it.

If you don't have fun doing it, then I ask, "Why do it?" as well regardless if there is an expansion around the corner or not.

Obviously the day you level to 70 you don't just unsubscribe and wait for 71-80. You play for fun regardless if your "efforts" aren't lasting. (Here is a tip: No ones efforts in a game are lasting - that's like bragging that you just completed 5,000 hours of watching tv or something like that).

The thing with making 5man encounters that are extremely challenging and require lots of coordination and skill and ability to adapt to randomness is that it can't be too difficult that it requires a certain class makeup but I'm sure they're going to make the 5mans in WotLK have heroic difficulty and they said they are really liking the heroic badge system and are adding tons of items to it as time goes on.

Good points. I think it would be reasonable (and profitable) for Blizz to add top end gear items like tiered armor sets to the heroic badge system. That would give people like me (and I think I'm nowhere near alone here, especially amongst those with some disposable income) an oppotunity to get top notch gear without the time constraints of a 25 man raid.

It's just frustrating to me to think that Wastewalker is the best feral gear set I'll realistically be able to get before the next expansion.

well here is a example... as the current attitude wtih a large ammount of people in my guild and server.

- why should we work to raid in kara and other places, when if a wait a few months i can get better drops from just normal world drops and quests then i would have in there.

so now we have this great ending to the mighty push for most players to do raids that are current.

this being a huge issue in my guild atm, have already seen a few people get to the point of annoyance they have left the game.

It's for the fun, and the experience of the content. Not b/c the gear won't be outdated for another 6+ months.

BTW, chances are the xpac won't be out this year ( I'm guestimating 1st/2nd Q 08 ) so there's still nearly a years worth of raiding / questing / whatevering to do. If people are calling it now b/c in 6 - 10 months there's going to be new gear that's easily attainable, then :lmao: :boohoo:

Good points. I think it would be reasonable (and profitable) for Blizz to add top end gear items like tiered armor sets to the heroic badge system. That would give people like me (and I think I'm nowhere near alone here, especially amongst those with some disposable income) an oppotunity to get top notch gear without the time constraints of a 25 man raid.

It's just frustrating to me to think that Wastewalker is the best feral gear set I'll realistically be able to get before the next expansion.

They did add more gear for those that don't raid. Heroics. Very good gear in many cases.

It's for the fun, and the experience of the content. Not b/c the gear won't be outdated for another 6+ months.

BTW, chances are the xpac won't be out this year ( I'm guestimating 1st/2nd Q 08 ) so there's still nearly a years worth of raiding / questing / whatevering to do. If people are calling it now b/c in 6 - 10 months there's going to be new gear that's easily attainable, then :lmao: :boohoo:


oh i fully agree with taht fact, which is why i am still around and trying, but sadly i have seen quite a few that are going the other direction

With the reaction @ blizzcon to the xpac, people were quite please with what they saw and heard was coming. If your current guild/group/server isn't cutting it and progressing the way you want, it may be time to move on to where more people have a similar goal set.

Expansion = More and more money for blizzard.
If you read curse-gaming you'll see that only 3% of whole WoW population is done with endgame content which is pretty sad and almost like 90% is still working on Karazhan. Blizzard should think and take care more about let's say normal players with life than the ones who are spending 10+ hours playing it. New expansion will bring cool new epics, endgame content etc. but let's look at it real, who's gonna reach it soon ?!? It's pretty sad cause a lot of people are dreaming about doing some endgame content but they just can't cause things are just moving a way too fast and even if they get into it they will release something new or better so you can try as much as you want but you'll never reach the end. I m glad cause of the new expansion but lmao wtf am not even done with Karazhan O_O

Expansion = More and more money for blizzard.I think it is more to keep users from switching to warhammer?!?!Blizzard should think and take care more about let's say normal players with life than the ones who are spending 10+ hours playing it.Amen. The new daily quest and "outdoor" 5-man quest chains added recently is a big hit. I'd love to see more of that.It's pretty sad cause a lot of people are dreaming about doing some endgame content but they just can't cause things are just moving a way too fast and even if they get into it they will release something new or better so you can try as much as you want but you'll never reach the end. Right. Any one clear MC lately? lmao wtf am not even done with Karazhan O_OMy very casual guild of 300+ accounts (~480 characters) has yet to clear Kara. We only hit it about once every 2 weeks. Many folks just don't spend the time in the game to gear up, skill up, and consumable up for something like Kara. Let alone Gruul, SSC, BT, etc.

If I ever clear Kara, I'll feel like I "finished" BC. We do clear ZG once a month (or so) for some odd reason. Something to do with a rare mount, or something like that.

You don't need to raid 10+ hrs a day to go anywhere in endgame. It's not like that anymore.

Kara has been nerfed to hell and back. 3 hrs a few days a week with everyone focused and you can easily get through Curator. Aran may be a sticking point based on class make-up.

Back on topic, Blizz IS catering to the "less hard core" groups. Zul'Aman is coming out, they are going to have more 10 mans in the new xpac, 25 mans ( BIG difference from 40 mans ), and are looking at re-tuning Nax for 10 - 25 people of lvl 80 for one of the first instances in Northrend.

The dailies, the quests that are added and talking about making the xp curve from 1 - 60 easier, all sounds awesome.

You don't need to raid 10+ hrs a day to go anywhere in endgame. It's not like that anymore.

Kara has been nerfed to hell and back. 3 hrs a few days a week with everyone focused and you can easily get through Curator. Aran may be a sticking point based on class make-up.

Back on topic, Blizz IS catering to the "less hard core" groups. Zul'Aman is coming out, they are going to have more 10 mans in the new xpac, 25 mans ( BIG difference from 40 mans ), and are looking at re-tuning Nax for 10 - 25 people of lvl 80 for one of the first instances in Northrend.

The dailies, the quests that are added and talking about making the xp curve from 1 - 60 easier, all sounds awesome.

I just don't have will anymore, that's it. All that time that we spent in Naxx before expansion just took too much of me and getting everything again is pretty much a suffer. I won't say that I m not epic, but not tier5 or tier6 which I used to be before exp " Highest tier set ".

Having the will to raid and saying that Blizz isn't taking care of the bulk of their customers is very different.

Blizz reduced raid content requirements ( attunements, # of people, consumable stacking ) to make it easier for those that had never done it before to take part in it.

For people that started the game around the time Nax was introduced, there's no way they could gear up and get into Nax any time soon.

With the introduction of TBC, "end game" was opened back up to everyone. The playing field was leveled and effectively a server reset done. Yes, you had to level up and gear up again, but isn't going through that content part of the fun? Isn't going through and killing Curator, Prince, Nightbane, etc for a first time part of the draw of the raiding experience?

You don't need 40 people anymore - Blizz made raiding more accessible
You don't need TK & SSC attunements anymore - Blizz made raiding more accessible
You don't need hundreds of gold worth of every consumable you can stack - Blizz made raiding more accessible.

See what I'm getting at? ;)

Having the will to raid and saying that Blizz isn't taking care of the bulk of their customers is very different.

Blizz reduced raid content requirements ( attunements, # of people, consumable stacking ) to make it easier for those that had never done it before to take part in it.

For people that started the game around the time Nax was introduced, there's no way they could gear up and get into Nax any time soon.

With the introduction of TBC, "end game" was opened back up to everyone. The playing field was leveled and effectively a server reset done. Yes, you had to level up and gear up again, but isn't going through that content part of the fun? Isn't going through and killing Curator, Prince, Nightbane, etc for a first time part of the draw of the raiding experience?

You don't need 40 people anymore - Blizz made raiding more accessible
You don't need TK & SSC attunements anymore - Blizz made raiding more accessible
You don't need hundreds of gold worth of every consumable you can stack - Blizz made raiding more accessible.

See what I'm getting at? ;)


hmm yea, pretty much true, they made some things easier for not so casual players. Well yea, we'll see how ppl will react after this new expansion. I think it wont be so good but we'll see ....

The biggest issue I see with another expansion is the need for new users to level 80 levels before they get "caught up" with everyone. That would take me 6+ months of multi-hour multi-day-per-week play. That is quite a road block for new players and those that want to make alts.

I have to wonder now how many of these "new" 1M users (since the BC release) are really new to the game, or just re-activations of old accounts?

I've read hints that blizz may "speed-up" the 1-60 leveling process, that would help, though at what cost?

You don't need 40 people anymore - Blizz made raiding more accessible
You don't need TK & SSC attunements anymore - Blizz made raiding more accessible
You don't need hundreds of gold worth of every consumable you can stack - Blizz made raiding more accessible.

See what I'm getting at? ;)But you still need a capable well geared group to make it thru Kara even with the so called "nerfs". I'd be willing to bet that 90% number largely represents folks that just don't have the skills to make it thru a Raid even if they were given Tier6 gear. IOW, you can't PUG the current Raids.

I think what some folks want is a pug'able 10/25-man content. I'm told some of the old lvl 60 content was pug'able back with the cap was 60. Guess blizz replaced pug'able raids with heroics???

The old raids were realistically puggable when you had people in at least the instance above.

Kara is still puggable, I'm in the process of doing that with some alts. People have run it before, and know the fights but the gear still makes the fights interesting.