I've been tanking for a while in KZ. We've progressed up to the Curator, but not beyond the Curator. What I think I've found is that I'm holding back the dps from being able to live up to their potential. From some of the more experienced tanks, could you outline your general dps/ability strategy for both living and dead mobs? I adjusted my spec to amp my damage a bit, but my big concern is that I'm missing something simple. I know I can't use lacerate on dead things and that really really hurts my agro generation.... I don't want to be a bottleneck for the dps in fights that require high levels of dps to complete (Curator cough cough...)

Some of what I was thinking was the following for agro generation:
Open with FF pull or charge (possibly load yourself up with HOTS to build healing agro as well)
Maul
Mangle
Maul
Demoralizing Roar
Maul
Mangle
Maul
DR
Maul
Mangle etc... (For dead mobs)

For living mobs I was thinking of
Open with FF pull or charge (possibly load yourself up with HOTS to build healing agro as well)
Maul
Mangle
Lacerate
Lacerate
Demoralizing Roar
Maul
Lacerate
Mangle
Maul
Lacerate
DR
Mangle etc

Any suggestions are welcome. I haven't had a chance to get Earthwarden yet which I know will add a bit to my DPS. Any thoughts at all are welcome. I'm just trying to make it easier on our dps as they are having trouble getting over 500dps per person average due to tanking limitations.

The biggest problem is this: Maul is useless unless you have excess rage. Compared to mangle and lacerate, it hardly generates any threat. If you really want to maximize your threat..just spam mangle every time it's CD is up, and lacerate everytime between. Skip everything else unless you have 60+ rage consistantly because it doesn't trigger the GCD.

Yes, but when tanking on boss mobs, you always pretty much have a full rage bar. My concern is that I'm not really maximizing my damage if I'm not doing something with that rage. Mangle spam only occurs every so often. if I have a mob that bleeds, then lacerate is a great option. Or is lacerate generating decent rage even if it doesn't apply the bleed effect?? Maybe I'm not understanding its use against bosses that don't bleed?

Could be wrong and i am sure others will correct me if I am but with lacerate the threat is front loaded so you get most threat for the initial attack and not the bleed.

There is no need to drop lacerate completely when on undead mobs. They added a front end damage component that is most of the aggro. The Dot is secondary ( minor ) aggro in comparison.

- I tend not to lead off with charge, it just eats rage
- I try to start with Mangle ( nice big dose of aggro )
- a few lacerates a demo roar and more mangles followed by maul when mangle is on CD

So long as I get a few seconds head start, nobody really pulls aggro on me. Just make sure everyone blows their CDs on the evocations and locks can time their Curse of Doom to hit just after he goes into an evocation.

Listen to Kyane, don't give up Lacerate on undead mobs! You do get the threat bonus from it, just not the bleed.

Sweet. That's what I needed to know. Just the added threat generation is good to know. I'm looking to do anything I can to increase my threat generation so the dpsers can unleash more hell on the mobs. Not that I want them to blow me out of the water, but the more threat I generate the harder they can hit the better/shorter the fights are overall.

Just to expand on what was said.

Lacerate used to be pretty useless. But then, during the big druid nerf, Blizzard quickly hotfixed us, modifying our lacerate. The threat of Lacerate is from the initial damage (front-load) right now, and the bleed adds a little. It's not as much threat-per-rage as Maul, but it's more threat-per-second, as it doesn't eat up a white hit and is instant. So, you can use it on any mob and get the same results.

Also, I wouldn't use Demo Roar unless there are no warriors.

And as far as a pull goes, Wrath or Starfire is better than FFF pulls--for trash and instances, at least. But, on bosses, with their crazy aggro ranges, I find it better to usually run in in bear, with your enrage going down as you engage. This starts you off with 20-30+ rage. /shrug

One thing you should consider is swapping your weapons to your DPS one when he evocates. Might not be big, but it can certainly help a tad.

Also, I wouldn't use Demo Roar unless there are no warriors.

One thing you should consider is swapping your weapons to your DPS one when he evocates. Might not be big, but it can certainly help a tad.

@ Demo Roar - If no warriors have imp demo shout, it doesn't matter who does it. It's better if you don't since you get to keep the rage, but if it's just you, keep it up....always.

@ DPS weapon swap - I thought I had added that to my post, I guess it was something I meant to and didn't ( damn meetings taking away from my Druidic postings! )

For bosses, don't ignore Maul whatever you do.

Most bosses hit hard enough to give you enough rage in order to constantly be Mauling while you toss in Lacerate and Mangle (they share a CD with each other, but not with Maul) so spam that shizz.

I'm constantly Mauling while switching between Mangle and Lacerate and FF (when it's off) while tanking bosses and I usually pump out 700+ TPS.

@ Demo Roar - If no warriors have imp demo shout, it doesn't matter who does it. It's better if you don't since you get to keep the rage, but if it's just you, keep it up....always.

@ DPS weapon swap - I thought I had added that to my post, I guess it was something I meant to and didn't ( damn meetings taking away from my Druidic postings! )

I try not to use DR early on (and never with weak trash mobs) because it seems to really gimp my rage generation, especially if I'm trying to hold multiple trash mobs and will be swiping a lot.

On the other hand, I try to avoid using enrage with bosses because they'll hit me hard enough to generate rage, and the debuff to my armor will just make my healer work harder.

Similar situation with changing weapons- if I'm not generating enough rage I could see putting Earthwarden away to drop my armor a little and increase my DPS.

Are these strategies on track or am I off base?

No these are all great tactics. I'm going to try to see what I can do with these to really start laying out the TPS. My goal is to get to the 700+TPS so my dps can really lay it out.

Just stole this from the Druid Forum:

Rage gain generating threat has been brought up. Since lacerate is more likely to t4 and fury, this would make lacerate slightly better. I believe 1 rage gain = 5 threat which is then not affected by bear/talent multipliers? Also, does anyone know for sure if you gain that threat on procs like fury/t4 rage gains?

Edit: updated white hit threat generated to be about 12, since 8 was too low.
Edit: updated with maul not being able to glancing blow vs a boss.
Edit: updated with chance to proc omen and chance to proc 2 piece t4.

This first post is math, assumptions, and averages. For real world examples, check the 2nd and 3rd post.

Obviously if you have infinite rage mangle, lacerate x3, maul every swing.

Convential wisdom has been mangle then lacerate spam > maul. The reasoning is that lacerate gives you an extra attack to crit, and that maul takes away your white hit, costing you the rage you would otherwise have received.

What does the math tell us?

Things I believe to be true (correct me if I'm wrong):

Bear / talent multipliers affect all of this and can be factored out.
20% armor reduction on a mob is normal (I actually really don't know, just throwing this out there).
Lacerate and maul have the same chance to be blocked, parried or miss.

White Hit Rage
Rage Gained from dealing damage = ((Damage Dealt) / (Rage Conversion at Your Level) * 7.5 + (Weapon Speed * Factor))/2
For Druid:
Rage Conversion = 274.7
Weapon Speed = 2.5
Factor for Main Hand = 3.5
Non Crit White Hit Rage Gain = ([Non Crit Avg White Hit]/274.7 * 7.5 + 2.5 * 3.5)/2
Factoring in 2.2x dmg on crits:
Average White Hit Rage Gain = (1-[Crit%] + 2.2 x [Crit%]) x ([Non Crit Avg White Hit]/274.7 * 7.5 + 2.5 * 3.5)/2

Maul
Maul adds 322 static threat beyond the white damage (source: omen).
Brutality adds 50 damage to each maul.
Maul adds 176 damage to the white hit.
Maul costs 10 rage with talents.
Maul consumes your white hit, costing you the rage geneated by white hits
Maul can crit, giving free rage, but the white hit could have crit too, so primal fury does not add additional rage beyond white hits for maul. Similarly it doesn't give you an extra chance to proc clearcasting or get the 2 piece tier 4 bonus.
If maul crits the 322 is not doubled, but the white threat / brutality bump is.
Armor affects maul damage.
Naturalist does not affect the 322 threat.
Mauls cannot be glancing blows, effectively gaining you 25% of 30% of your white damage beyond your un-mauled white hit versus a boss.

Lacerate
Lacerate adds 285 threat to bleed immune mobs.
Lacerate can crit, giving free rage.
If lacerate crits, it does give 5 free rage.
If lacerate crits, only the dd damage's threat is doubled, not the bleed or 285.
Naturalist does not affect the 285 lacerate threat.
With a 5 stack on bleedable mobs, lacerate adds 10.33 x 5 x .2 = 10.33 more threat per second.
If you do mangle, lacerate x 3, repeat, you end up with 6 seconds of dot per 3 lacerates, or 2 seconds of dot threat per lacerate use.
Lacerate costs 13 rage with talents.
Lacerate's bleed damage ignores armor.
Lacerate's bleed gains 30% from mangle.
Lacerate's damage is affected by naturalist.
Lacerate gives you an extra attack, giving you another chance to gain 5 rage from primal fury.
Lacerate gives you an extra attack, giving you an extra chance to proc omen of clarity.
Lacerate gives you an extra attack, giving you an extra chance to proc T4 2 piece bonus.
Not really significant but...Lacerate's dd is affected by the 20% threat rule (really not sure about this at all).
Not really significant but...Lacerate's dd is affected by armor (really not sure here either).
Not really significant but...Lacerate's dd is not affected by mangle.

With these assumptions, given limited rage:

Maul threat beyond white hit threat = 322 + (1 - [Armor %]) x 1.1 x ((50 + 176) x (1 - [Crit Rate] + 2.2 x [Crit Rate]) + .3 x .25 x [White Hit Dmg])
Effective rage cost: 10 + [Lost White Hit Rage]

Lacerate threat bleed immune = 285 + .2 x 31 x 1.1 x (1 - [Crit Rate] + 2.2 x [Crit Rate]) x (1-[Armor %]).
Rage cost: 13 - 5 x [Crit Rate] - .083 x 13 - .04 x 10

Lacerate threat bleedable once 5 stacks = 285 + .2 x 31 x 1.1 x (1 - [Crit Rate] + 2.2 x [Crit Rate]) x (1-[Armor %]) + 10.33 x [Seconds Before Refresh] x 1.1 x 1.3
Rage cost: 13 - 5 x [Crit Rate] - .083 x 13 - .04 x 10

Putting in some pretend numbers (20% armor reduction, 33% crit, 300 point white hit, omen up, 2 piece tier 4, fighting a 73 mob), I get:
Average White Hit Rage Gain (from white hit, crit % and formula): 12

Maul adds 619.4 threat. Effective cost: 22. Threat per effective rage: 28.1
Lacerate from mangle, lacerate x3 repeat with 5 stack already up adds 322.2 threat. Average net cost: 9.871. Threat per rage: 32.6
Lacerate spam vs immune adds 292.6 threat. Average net cost: 9.871. Threat per rage: 29.6
Lacerate with 5 stack only refreshing every 12 seconds adds 416 threat. Average net cost: 9.871. Threat per rage 52.1.

Update: if these assumptions are correct, the difference between maul and lacerate spam is not huge either way. What is significant is that a) maul is the best snap threat (start of a fight or after a taunt) and b) letting a lacerate stack drop costs you a lot of threat.

Another concern that his been brought up (Cirion) is the chance for a missed early maul to leave you in a worse situation than a missed lacerate + white hit. This is a valid concern for the first few seconds of a fight (getting 3 chances to get some aggro vs 2). I think a bigger issue is why a dps'r is getting aggro before you have any threat showing up on ktm/omen at all. But, we all know dps'rs (druids included) do jump in too early on a regular basis.

Feel free to correct me. It would be really interesting if my numbers are wrong and convential wisdom (lacerate before maul if starved) ended up being wrong.

Thanks to Melange < Learn To Play > for several early corrections.

@ Demo Roar - If no warriors have imp demo shout, it doesn't matter who does it. It's better if you don't since you get to keep the rage, but if it's just you, keep it up....always.

One thing I should have tacked on is that the warriors in my guild always know to keep Thunderclap and Demo shout up if they're not tanking, which is why I said that. So, make sure you mention that to your warriors.

But if solo, definately have it up.

I try not to use DR early on (and never with weak trash mobs) because it seems to really gimp my rage generation, especially if I'm trying to hold multiple trash mobs and will be swiping a lot.

On the other hand, I try to avoid using enrage with bosses because they'll hit me hard enough to generate rage, and the debuff to my armor will just make my healer work harder.

Similar situation with changing weapons- if I'm not generating enough rage I could see putting Earthwarden away to drop my armor a little and increase my DPS.

Are these strategies on track or am I off base?

Imo, Demo roar isn't vital on trash mobs. The mobs die fast, so it's usually better to get your threat high fast, this way the DPS can kill the mobs faster. Only time I really use it on trash is if I'm tanking 3-4+ and want to get a little extra threat on them before I can place 1-2 lacerates on each mob.

I agree with not using enrage on bosses--that's why I don't have intensity.

Eh, I'd say keep the Earthwarden on. The Feral Attack Power it has and the Feral Combat skill will beat a lot of stuff, unless you happen to have Illhoof's staff. Don't forget, though, you'd also be losing defense rating, which might leave you vulnerable. The reason I suggested swapping for Evocates is he's not attacking at all, and it's pure damage during that time.

But yeah, I'd say your strategies are good.