View Full Forums : Which ring?


Annikk
01-17-2008, 08:58 AM
For raid cat dps, should I replace this ring:


A'dal's Command
Binds when picked up
Unique
Finger
+29 Strength
+16 Agility
+18 Stamina
Requires Level 70
Requires The Sha'tar - Exalted



...with this ring?

Shapeshifter's Signet
Binds when picked up
Unique
Finger
+25 Agility
+18 Stamina
Requires Level 70
Requires Lower City - Exalted
Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 20 (5.07 @ L70).


Currently (with A'dal's Command equipped) I have 78 hit rating and 0 expertise.
Raid buffed, my attack power is about 3300, my crit chance about 42%.


-Annikk

Dark_Holiday
01-17-2008, 09:30 AM
This has also been a big issue with hunters, "at what point is it more useful to stack AP and stats, then it is to max hit” It has been found that at 147 hit you never miss with a hunter, it is prob a little different for a druids, I dont have any math equations to break out for you but the same rules still apply, especially with us seeing that our attack speed is even faster then theirs. I always max my hit before anything else, I look at it this way: If I miss an attack, what is the point of having all this AP or Crit?

tlbj6142
01-17-2008, 10:11 AM
But expertise rating isn't hit rating. Misses aren't as big of a deal for Druid as they are for hunters. Since Druids don't lose all of their energy on a miss (unless it is a finishing move), whereas a hunter will lose his mana hit or miss.

That said, my gut says keep the first ring. You would be giving up almost 40 "DPS points" going with the 2nd ring. And I'm not sure if 20 ER is worth that much. Though I could be wrong.

tlbj6142
01-17-2008, 10:17 AM
FWIW, Emmerald's list (http://www.emmerald.net/Cat_High_DPS/Index.html) puts the first ring well above the 2nd.

Annikk
01-17-2008, 10:33 AM
I am lacking in hit rating, the cap is 142 and I am on 78. I'm told that, for the purposes of lvl 73 mobs and "skull" level bosses, having 20 expertise is equivalent to 3% hit rating, which is about half of what I need. Getting this ring would therefore put me at the hit cap. Unless I have misunderstood the mechanics of expertise?
(i'm pretty sure i have..)


-Annikk

Dark_Holiday
01-17-2008, 10:38 AM
You are correct annikk, I still believe being hit capped is the way to go, if you get hit capped with easy items like rings and gems, you can always change other items around to make up for the dps your missing. Seeing that finishers, especially rip our a huge chunk of our dps on bleed able bosses I feel it’s prudent that we do max it out. From what i have read the first 25 points of expertise are much better then +hit rating at the same point, but anything above that its marginal and better to use +hit. I will try and find were this has been posted, i know its part of the elitist jerks website.

tlbj6142
01-17-2008, 10:43 AM
That does sound about right. As the ER would push the mob's dodges off the "hit table" giving you more effective hit.

Interesting that you don't have more HR at your gear level. I can reach about ~120 HR with the quest greens I have at lvl 67. Which means the higher level gear must have less HR than the mid-level gear?!?! Yikes!

Annikk
01-17-2008, 10:48 AM
In my experience the stats I gain by switching out hit gear are just too juicy to ignore. I've been looking for some nice +hit gear for a while but I just can't bring myself to sacrifice all those stats.

Most of the +hit gear seems to have been designed more for rogues than druids.


-Annikk

tlbj6142
01-17-2008, 10:52 AM
Most of the +hit gear seems to have been designed more for rogues than druids.Understood. But with the recent change to HotW, isn't rogue gear kitty gear?

Annikk
01-17-2008, 11:07 AM
Technically yes, but I vastly prefer stats over "end result" things like attack power. Strength, for example, gives me attack power, and +healing, and benefits from blessing of kings. Also it's awesome having 600+ strength and being a storng hard-fiting tuff durid :p


-Anniukk

Allahanastar
01-17-2008, 12:10 PM
Ok don't confuse Hit cap with expertise.

Hit Cap is what you need to make sure all of your hits actually land. So you won't miss. That is completely independant from Expertise. Expertise is the stuff that makes sure that hit isn't Dodged or parried. They serve similar but mutually exclusive purposes.

Its better to hit the hit cap and build expertise. Both will up your DPS considerably.

Dark_Holiday
01-17-2008, 01:13 PM
Another thing to remember about expertise is that it has a different roll generator than +hit does, so once the +hit roll goes off, then the expertise goes off too, expertise has been shown better for tanking than for actual dps output because of the reduction in dodge and parry to the boss, but nonetheless it is still invaluable to have if you are stuck in front of a mob or just can't seem to reach the +hit cap with the items you currently have.

Trixtaa
01-17-2008, 09:28 PM
Is there an effective Expertise Cap which puts you at a place where almost none of your hits will be dodged or parried?

Dark_Holiday
01-18-2008, 01:00 AM
I am sorry to be very vague on the area of expertise but this is were you can find the information on it, I would find the specific math thread but I just don’t have the time right now, I found this on elitist jerks website, its the feral druid mega thread:

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16902-feral_druid_megathread/

I hope this helps... If anyone finds the expertise thread before me, plz throw us the link.

Annikk
01-18-2008, 07:55 AM
Ok don't confuse Hit cap with expertise.
...
Its better to hit the hit cap and build expertise. Both will up your DPS considerably.

Thanks Allahanastar, your post is the one I was looking for.
If I may, I have 4 questions for you. :>

1. You say it's "better" to hit the hit cap _and_ build expertise. Which is more important for raid dps? ie should I save this slot for a ring with hit chance?

2. You say "better" - better than what? Not hitting the caps?

3. Expertise reduces your opponents chance to dodge or parry attacks. Is this even relevant, given that I'm always behind my target when dps'ing? As I understand it, players cannot dodge or parry when attacked from behind.. can mobs?

4. Ultimately, which ring do you think I should use, given my other dps stats?


-Annikk

Allahanastar
01-18-2008, 09:04 AM
Thanks Allahanastar, your post is the one I was looking for.
If I may, I have 4 questions for you. :>

1. You say it's "better" to hit the hit cap _and_ build expertise. Which is more important for raid dps? ie should I save this slot for a ring with hit chance?

I'd have to say for raid dps the best solution is to get hit capped first. Expertise is nice, but it won't help as much. You are right parry goes off the table if you are behind them. I don't know about dodge though... I'd have to look that one up.

2. You say "better" - better than what? Not hitting the caps?

Sorry should have been more explicit. Its better to work on the hit cap first. Expertise is a great stat for tanks etc due to their face up attacking method. Its less important for a dps kitty where you can be behind them. So its better for your dps to aim for the "hit" cap first.


3. Expertise reduces your opponents chance to dodge or parry attacks. Is this even relevant, given that I'm always behind my target when dps'ing? As I understand it, players cannot dodge or parry when attacked from behind.. can mobs?


Again I'd have to look for it. Looking quickly in Wowwiki.com, the only restriction I see on Dodge is that they can't dodge if stunned. I don't see a specific restriction on front vs. rear. So if that's true expertise will help you in the long run.


4. Ultimately, which ring do you think I should use, given my other dps stats?


In this case for now I'd keep the heavier stats one, but now I'm not so sure.... you have sooooo much AP at this point you might be better off dumping some STR and improving your crit and expertise. God I'd almost have to test it to be sure.

Annikk
01-18-2008, 09:08 AM
Alright, thanks. :>

I think I will wait and look for a nice ring with hit rating. There's a nice one from Hydross which I might win... eventually..


-Annikk

Allahanastar
01-18-2008, 12:10 PM
http://blessingofkings.blogspot.com/2007/07/hit-caps-for-bosses.html

Someone just linked this in our raiding alliance. This does a great job of talking about hit caps and expertise. It looks like 20 expertise would in theory decrease your number of dodged hits by 4% (roughly...) So its an amazing jump in dps potentially. That second ring might be quite a bit better.

Annikk
01-18-2008, 04:08 PM
There was something else about this as well... something like the first 20 expertise rating you get counts as like 3% reduced chance for the mob to dodge... Anyone know anything about that?
I'd trade my stats ring for -3% mob dodge chance....



-Annikk

tlbj6142
01-18-2008, 04:10 PM
Are you sure you are not thinking about the old Feral Combat Skill? With that the first X points were worth more than those after X.

Dark_Holiday
01-19-2008, 06:27 AM
Thanks Allahanastar, your post is the one I was looking for.
If I may, I have 4 questions for you. :>

1. You say it's "better" to hit the hit cap _and_ build expertise. Which is more important for raid dps? ie should I save this slot for a ring with hit chance?

2. You say "better" - better than what? Not hitting the caps?

3. Expertise reduces your opponents chance to dodge or parry attacks. Is this even relevant, given that I'm always behind my target when dps'ing? As I understand it, players cannot dodge or parry when attacked from behind.. can mobs?

4. Ultimately, which ring do you think I should use, given my other dps stats?


-Annikk

+hit needs to be maxed out to never miss with white and yellow attacks (it has been tested that yellow has a different hit cap... I know that shamy's have some weird hit cap for SS) This means that even if you are behind the mob you still have a chance to miss, wear as if you are completely behind the mob he can not dodge or parry you. So with this maxing +hit means more for the cat dps scale because you should always be behind your mob. As far as expertise goes if there is no way to get behind your mob it is critical to bring down the chances of them dodging or parrying your attacks. Over all I would still rate +hit to be the one you work on, if you can get some expertise its a good thing, especially with tanking as you will never be behind your mob and still be the MT. It is hard to answer your question completely with this ring ordeal, as they are both incredibly good rings for druids. They are very situational at best, for normal mobs that you can get behind them I say stay with the ring you have now, if you can’t, then take a chance at putting on the other ring and have at it.

Aral
01-19-2008, 07:46 AM
As far as i have heard and seen, hit is THE most important stat for dps. And it is especially easy to get hit capped as a druid, seeing that we need only 142 hit rating.
It does not mean that you should get hit capped as soon as possible although it is a good thing to do, unless you gimp all your other stats.
Currently i am at around 37% crit and 2850 ap self buffed, 142 hit rating, 0 expertise. This all is in my dps gear which only has 3 kara pieces i think, the rest is crafted/blue.
I can tell you that my dps is quite high, although i raid only kara for now i am always 2nd in dps, i outdps all of the ppl there except 1 rogue and mostly all of them are full epic now.
Consider that the mobs in kara are bleed-immune, so that really gimps my dps since i am wasting a lot of combo points.

Dark_Holiday
01-19-2008, 03:06 PM
Are you sure you are not thinking about the old Feral Combat Skill? With that the first X points were worth more than those after X.

Ok, this "was" the old feral combat skill and got transferred over to the expertise, from what I remember to many warriors and pally tanks were complaining that tank druids had an advantage over them because of the chance to drop parry and dodge lower then them, at that time stacking feral combat skill was a lot easier then weapon skill. Weapon skill (like orc’s axe or the trolls bow) also was transferred over to one type of expertise instead of per the weapon you were using. The old feral combat skill is the same amount as the new expertise, it has been tested.

Edit: I forgot to add that weapon skill was also changed to expertise...

Falloraan
01-23-2008, 04:05 PM
As far as i have heard and seen, hit is THE most important stat for dps. And it is especially easy to get hit capped as a druid, seeing that we need only 142 hit rating.
It does not mean that you should get hit capped as soon as possible although it is a good thing to do, unless you gimp all your other stats.
Currently i am at around 37% crit and 2850 ap self buffed, 142 hit rating, 0 expertise. This all is in my dps gear which only has 3 kara pieces i think, the rest is crafted/blue.
I can tell you that my dps is quite high, although i raid only kara for now i am always 2nd in dps, i outdps all of the ppl there except 1 rogue and mostly all of them are full epic now.
Consider that the mobs in kara are bleed-immune, so that really gimps my dps since i am wasting a lot of combo points.
I don't think +hit is the most important dps stat to go for. It certainly is important, especially in maintaining a good consistent dps rotation (ie, misses really can throw off your rotation). But I don't sacrifice a good piece of gear to maintain 142 hit rating (reduces your chance to miss by 9%). I get the best gear available to me, and if that leaves me sitting at 48 hit rating or 3.04% then so be it (and that's exactly what I currently have for hit rating in my dps set). If I need a yellow gem to achieve a socket bonus, I'll go with something with +hit on it. But otherwise AGI will give you more of an overall dps return than a corresponding amount of +hit will when socketing gear (for gem item budgets, 8 AGI = 4 Hit), even if you had 0 hit rating.

I can't stress how useful Toskk's Feral DPS Gear Methodology (http://druid.wikispaces.com/ToskksDPSGearMethod#tocToskksDPSGearMethod2) is. It's a really accurate picture of what gear is an upgrade for you, based on your stats. It takes into account if you are maxed on +hit or if a set bonus is more beneficial regardless of stat differences (like 2 piece T4 bonus).

Play around with the damage calculator, you'll never need to ask a question on the forums again about what piece of gear is an upgrade for you.

Elymanrock
01-29-2008, 04:44 PM
To answer your original question. The first ring is better.

AGIL has been proven over and over to be the most important druid dps stat.

Expertise only affects hitting when in front of a mob/boss. If you are dps'ing you should always be behind. Remember that a lot of bosses reset their hitting if they parry an attack, effectively increasing their damage - thats why the programmed hunters pets to always attack from behind.

Concentrate on increasing your ability to lay down damage, AP can easily be obtained through group/raid buffs. Stack that agility and get a responsible amount of toHit with out lossing over stats - watch that crit fly.

Losing the strength is king is the first step.