View Full Forums : Gear:Waist Not Want Not

01-19-2008, 03:01 PM
I am a feral druid, and I do a lot of tanking for my guild. I am trying to tune my gear, and understand the transition from Heavy Clefthoof set to t4 and beyond. The big advantage that the Heavy Clefthoof set gives is all that defense. It makes it easy to get to 415 or 156 defense rating( needed to be uncrittable).
What happens when you replace the set?
I can't seem to find enough things in other spots that will add up to enough defense. (I have Slikk's Cloak of Placation; Barbed Choker of Discipline; Violet Signet of the Great Protector;Ring of Unyielding Force; Earthwarden; which gives 100 defense rating total. Add in 12 from gems slots available after Clefthoof set is gone {bracer+4, chest+4, head+4}, gives 112. That is still 44 defense rating short.)

Any hints?

For instance the Footwraps of Wild Enchroachment are best for overall mitigation, but no defense. If you replace the Heavy Clefthoof Boots you lose at least 21 defense.
We do still need to maintain the uncrit level after t4 right?

Another question:
Is overall mitigation better than armor cap, if you have to choose? For instance the Waistguard of the Great Beast is better for overall mitigation than the Tree-menders belt. But the Treemender has more armor, and I dont currently have 35k armor yet. (needed against lvl73 bosses)
Or am I missing something, does overall mitigation count towards the armor cap. It thought it was armor only?

Any help is appreciated,
of Hydraxis

01-19-2008, 04:02 PM
Or am I missing something, does overall mitigation count towards the armor cap. It thought it was armor only? I always thought armor = mitigation, so I'm not sure what you're asking.

01-20-2008, 10:22 PM
If by overall mitigation you mean all the defining factors of a tank (armor, health, dodge) there is no true cap but a gear cap (you can only get so much).

01-21-2008, 12:01 AM
I'm familiar with discussing the defensive power of a tank as mitigation (armor), avoidance (dodge, parry, block), and stamina.

01-21-2008, 03:28 AM

You have 350 defense skill at level 70. To be "uncrittable" on bosses, you need 415 defense skill. That's an increase of 65 rating - you need that amount from your items. However, if you don't have the Survial of the Fittest talent, you will need more defense skill than that - a lot more.

Presuming you have the talent: If you mouse over the Defense Skill tooltip you will see how much crit reduction % you are getting from items. 415 defense skill gives you 3% reduction in chance to be critted.
As you work through karazhan and eventually SSC and TK, you will likely replace a lot of your +defense gear with gear that is better for other reasons (eg stats, armor value). In this case it can be useful to supplement your defense skill with resilience, as for anti-crit purposes it does pretty much the same thing.
Mouse over your resilience rating, and then take a note of the crit chance reduction, then mouse over your defense skill, and add that number to the number from your resilience. If the result is 3% or more, you're capped.

Note that defense skill also increases your dodge chance. Resilience does not do this.


01-21-2008, 04:08 AM
Well sofar ive found that rings, cloak, neck and gems are a good source to still get the needed defence rating though honestly ive been 2 rating below the cap a while but couldnt notice much difference in getting critted.
And getting ****loads of armor helps. So kitting out in T4 is very beneficial but keep an eye on the defence rating.
Some geartips; karazhan reputation ring + heroic badges tank ring for instance ;)

01-21-2008, 09:53 AM
Thanks for the comments...perhaps I mixed some things together ot wasnt too clear. I understand the defense cap, and have OVER 415, more like 455 currently. The next cap to obtain is the armor cap right?

I have been through Kara, and Gruul, so I have three of the T4 pieces...the gloves, head, and shoulders. One day soon I hope to get the pants. In looking at the pants, I see more mitigation than the Heavy Clefthoof, however you lose a boat-load of defense. Same thing will happen for chest, and then when I replace the boots for Footwraps of Wild Enchroachment. The new T4 pieces do not have defense except for putting some gems in with it. (btw-I dont see any resilience on the new T4 stuff either. So defense must come from gems, neck, rings (such as the Ring of Unyielding Force, and the Protectorate from Kara...I have those) trinkets. (still farming for that stupid Badge of Tenacity)
My first question was about defense items that can add up to 415, while wearing full T4 set?
It may be that I was adding up the defense and defense rating on items wrong. I put all my stuff into that RAWR program and it seems there will be enough defense with gems and other items. When I added it by hand it did not add up right.
I will put other question in seperate post.

Thank you for helping.

01-21-2008, 11:39 AM
Consider arena gear for tanking armor. It has resilience, which you can use as a substitute for defense skill.

445 defense skill is too high. You can afford to drop some.


01-22-2008, 03:46 AM
Seriously, replace the extra +defense and +resilience with stamina or agility.

01-22-2008, 01:40 PM
LOL, yea I agree, it is too much, however I am preparing for some new pieces. When I get the Greaves of Malorne I will lose about 29 defense rating. I am also about to get the Vestments of Hibernation and will lose about 28 defense rating from the chest.
That is why I am concerned. When I add 28+29=57. 445-57=388. However, when this is calculated in RAWR, it comes up to more than 415. IDK what I am adding wrong, but as long I still have the Heavy Clefthoof Boots on, I should still have enough defense. So I am considering the Vindicator Leather Boots for the resilience and better mitigation, to trade with the Clefthoof, and I will still have the Uncrittable lvl.
Thank you,

01-22-2008, 02:36 PM
Well if you have any arena gear the resilience adds a ton.

01-23-2008, 11:09 AM
yea...but I dont do arena, and you can only drag me into a BG if I must have a piece of gear from there.

01-24-2008, 05:15 AM
i'm beginning to think that as well....i detest pvp.

and i mean from before they properly introduced it the world PVP between horde and allies used to take place at TM !

with us poor horde being outnumbered 2 or even 3 to 1.

now the rewards from some pvp seem to almost outweigh the effort needed to achieve gear upgrades via raiding.

01-24-2008, 06:33 AM
Old World PvP is awesome in that if you can survive without throwing your computer against the wall or growing a bleeding ulcer, you'll be a much better player.

Seriously, I refuse to roll PvE. I need that adrenaline rush. And yes, fyi, I have levelled a bunch of classes that don't have stealth.

I swear, some PvE types are... dumb.

01-24-2008, 09:04 AM
World PvP would be fine if there was some sort of lvl gap blocking. I know when I played on a PvP server, the only world pvp action I saw was 2-3 to 1 and the average level difference between me and the lowest attacking player was 9+.

It took me a while but I finally learned the best World PvP move, "/sit". Though if I knew where the closest graveyard was located, I'd at least start walking in that direction.

01-24-2008, 10:15 AM
That's all part of the fun.

So long as they're not more than 4 levels above you, world PvP can be fun as hell. Alot of it comes down to perception and knowledge of game mechanics, intelligence and mental quickness.

If they're in a group? Awesome. See, people aren't like mobs. If you attack a mob, he'll instantly know he's being attack and know it was you and know exactly where you are, and all his buddies all around him will know too. Not so with people. Especially if they're concentrating on something else, you can drop a few dots or even some not-very-flashy spells, and they won't even know they're being attacked. Then when they realize they're at half health, hide somewhere. When their buddy notices they're dead, so is he. And you thought two +4 level players were scary? Psh. People are dumb and easy to kill.

As for the bored level 70's ganking in STV: I didn't say it was fair. It's a bit more realistic that way. You just have to constantly be on guard for them, watching and paying attention and ready to run. And if they camp you? Log off. It's just a game. While you're watching TV and having a snack that jerk is staring at your corpse waiting for you to rez. Who's laughing now amirite.

Then there's the wonderful feeling you get when you win. Y'know, outsmart that stupid 70. Save the zone by killing the ganker. Evade the team clearing out Southshore. Kill the jerk who thought you would go down easy because he's 5 levels above you. You cannot get that on a PvE server.

01-24-2008, 10:22 AM
I beat my first level 60 (this was pre-tbc) in a duel at level 48. I was so proud ! :>


01-24-2008, 10:31 AM
That's all part of the fun.See, I just found it annoying and frustrating. I would not be playing WoW now if I did not transfer my toon off of a PvP server. I suspect STV has been the death of many accounts.If they're in a group? Awesome. See, people aren't like mobs. If you attack a mob, he'll instantly know he's being attack and know it was you and know exactly where you are, and all his buddies all around him will know too. Not so with people.I think you are assuming I'd want to start a fight. That didn't happen. So, they always knew what was going on.

Then there's the wonderful feeling you get when you win. You cannot get that on a PvE server.So, suffer thru hours of painful game experience in hopes that some day you might get 5 seconds of glory? No thanks.

I have a limited time to play. I want to maximize my game play. I enjoy leveling, I enjoy PvE. Having to log out because some idiot won't let me level in STV is in direct conflict with my playing style.

01-24-2008, 10:36 AM
Different folks, different strokes.. I can see the appeal of pvp servers but I'm glad I'm on a nice, friendly pvefest :>


01-24-2008, 10:39 AM
I beat my first level 60 (this was pre-tbc) in a duel at level 48. I was so proud ! :>
That's one inept 60. He must've been so pissed, he spent $300 at eBay and still couldn't win. I have a limited time to play. I want to maximize my game play. I enjoy leveling, I enjoy PvE. Having to log out because some idiot won't let me level in STV is in direct conflict with my playing style. I do not detect the warrior's spirit within you.

It is my assertion that without the PvP element, it's only half a game.

01-24-2008, 10:50 AM
A ball allows people to play basketball, or football.

Some play both; others play neither. A lot of people play one, but not the other. That doesn't make it half a ball though :>

-Annikk (all analogies are inaccurate)

01-24-2008, 11:05 AM
In my experience the only advantage of playing a PvP server is that end-game PvE tends to be more intense. My buddy has 2 accounts. Most of his toons are on a PvP server. I often play one of his toons on his PvP server to help out with instances, raids, etc. The level of play I see on the PvP server is close to an order of magnitude (yes I know what that means) higher than that on my PvE server.

I think because PvP servers force you to become a min/max twitch player. Whereas PvE servers don't encourage that behavior as much. So, it has to be learned during questing. And without a mentor (or a good forum like this), it ain't gonna happen.

01-26-2008, 05:47 AM
There's a whole other game being played on PvP servers.

It's about unfairness, and getting revenge. It's about being killed out of spite, and killing them for great justice. It's about the realism of two people meeting on a battlefield, of two political powerblocs close to a state of open war, and you - their soldiers - in the field. What do you do? /wave, or /spit? If some 70 is harassing noobs - do you go to their aid? When you're on a quest for the Alliance in the jungle of Stranglethorn, do you care about the Horde? Do you watch your back?

Honestly even when I'm lying face-down in the dirt and the GY my ghost appears at is a mile from my corpse, even when I get corpse-camped for twenty minutes, even when I get ganked by bored level 70s in epics, I'm having ten thousand times more fun than I would on a PvE server.

Carebears would say I'm sick in the head. I say they're carebears.

01-26-2008, 02:09 PM
There's a whole other game being played on PvP servers.Utill you reach lvl 70, at which point the whole World PvP thing becomes a non-issue. However, the intensity that existed while leveling gets "converted" into more intense (serious) PvE.

In my experience, once you reach lvl 70, world PvP more or less stops unless you are some sort of loner type that has nothing better to do than to annoy folks that are leveling in STV. As you rarely see World PvP where you have 70 v 70. Because world PvP is all about creating unfair fights that you know you can win and piss-off the other guy. Not because the "story" is making you do it.

It took me 45 levels on a PvP server to figure that all out (plus a couple of months playing end-game PvE on a PvP server). If I was with my buddy leveling we almost never had an issue. As soon as I was alone, every party of 2+ or someone 10 or more levels above me would be all over me. And at lvl 70, everyone just flies around to avoid PvP.

01-30-2008, 12:52 PM
When I add 28+29=57. 445-57=388.

2 Defense Rating = 1 Defense

When you lose 57 Defense RATING, you actually only lose 29 Defense points.

(WoW Rounds Up)

So your calculation is off.


57/2=28.5 (29 for WoW)


Right above the Defense cap.

You could actually lose 2 more Defense Rating and still be ok.

02-01-2008, 05:43 AM
I'm not the ganker-of-lowies kind of type but when one of my twinks gets ganked and camped by a lvl?? then my druid comes into play (im resto so i dont know always if im going to win^^).
thats just as fair it gets on pvp servers. and thats the fun of it.
And i find it kind of funny when i play my mage lvl50 and some lvl?? wants to gank me and i run around kiting him for 5 mins till he finally gets me! (im deep frost btw ;D)
Would never trade pvp for pve. and i hate the fact that i lvled a schami on a pve-server to 40 and cant transfer it to my current server :(

02-06-2008, 08:41 PM
Two words, elemental plateu. Who said lvl 70 world pvp was dead?