View Full Forums : Nurturing Instinct

04-02-2008, 04:11 PM
Any opinions yet on the change? I'm considering dropping ILotP (relies on crits) for NI (over 400 agility currently) but wanted to hear if anyone's figured out how valuable it is now for Feral PvP. Does the + to healing in Cat Form factor in for HoT's you cast on yourself (like lifebloom and Regrowth) and then switch back into cat? Or do you have to be in and remain in cat form when they are cast ?

Side bar: I'm also thinking of shifting 3 points from Naturalist to Intensity. This is strictly a PvP consideration. It seems the rage generated instantly from Intensity will lead to Feral Charge, Bash combos that are harder to pull off with only the 10 rage from furor. You lose 6% total damage which is tough. But for sheer utility it seems worth considering.

Thanks for any and all insight. :smile:

04-03-2008, 03:47 AM
Furor and intensity are a good combination for PvP - but if you are using it for CC by feral charging> bash then you lose some of the ultility of the Rage gains over time. I love Enrage (hop a little)> feral charge>maul>mangle> Bash > cat form > shred or rake x2 Maim. Doing Damage and locking down an opponent.

I am still not 100% sold on NI but I am having a break ATM so can't test changes. I wonder if a decent healing weapon maybe a better option (use a swap macro). I am pretty sure the cat form 20% is only from outside sources.

----> just an idea, this would become supa power with Idol of Terror and Badge of Tenacity. Damm thats an extra situational 225 healing

With ILoP 4% with 10,000k health is 400hp gain. Cat form chain sawing you should be criting about half the time, yes in Arena situations this would be reduced because of resilence. This also effects your group, so in 3 and 5manners it becomes more valuable to the group. Still it adds to your survival, but so does quick shift HoT - if you are running Natural shape shifter and Intensity your mana longevity will be fantastic.

Prehaps you could move points from some where else instead of ILoP? Thick Hide? I hope you aren't running feral aggression?

But please I think you have something that could work so give it a go!!. Post your spec if you need some deeper analysis.

04-03-2008, 02:05 PM
First my spec: Vika's Spec (

In most cases, PvP'ers are building up their resilience and are harder to crit. Diminshing the value of ILotP IMO. It procs less the less you crit. Sooo it's a very valuable PvE skill I believe and WAS more valuable in PvP than NI. However, IF you can HoT yourself and switch into cat form, then that would replace those 2 points in a hearbeat.

I'm not spending much time in Bear form in PvP. I use it situationally when either: 1) I want to Feral Charge to cover ground quikcly or interrupt a spell; 2) Bash to stun in order to then either heal, interrupt a spell, run away, or pop into cat form and get in a shred; 3) Tank a melee class (warrior, pally, rogue), or to live longer until backup arrives.

When I am in Bear form, I don't just Feral Charge / Bash and abandon it. But in arena, I'm often using the two close together to lock down a caster. I do throw in Mauls and Mangles as much as possible and a gratuitous roar to mitigate a bit of melee damage.

And no. Feral aggression is cack (though I would if Mangle wasn't inlcuded in Ferocity) and Thick Hide is a waste of points for Kitty DPS. Bear tanking has not been a problem without it either.

Take a look and see what you think. I *might* consider moving the 1 point in Nature's Grasp but with a 1 minute cooldown, it really is an equalizer against many melee classes and especially pets.

04-03-2008, 02:13 PM
Check out the blog entires of Teeth and Claws ( The current entry and 2 entries down. Both talk about NI.

For my playing style, I'm definately going to respec for NI. Probably give up NG and 1 point in BI.

From someone who did a bit of testing with the new NI...
1. The healing from HoTs is calculated at each tick, and if you switch to Cat form while affected by a HoT, NI will increase the healing done to you.
2. NI does indeed increase the healing done to you in Cat form from ILotP by 10%/20%, but not by 50%/100% of your agility (only the second part of the talent applies here).

04-03-2008, 02:46 PM
Yeah I just read that too!! I'm going to try it fer sure. If I can run behind a pillar, shapeshift, lifebloom, and go back to kitty while getting over +400 to healing and then another +20% when I switch into cat form, that could be gangbusters.

I'll report back what I find but I'll do some before and after testing. Thanks for the link.

Now if they just fix the Feral Melee Range Bug, I might be the happiest PvP'er alive. :>D

P.S. Giving up a point in BI? Ouch. There's gotta be a better point to give up. We have a very similar spec. Only difference is I have 3 in Natural Shapeshifter instead of Thick Hide and 3 in Primal Tenacity instead of Naturalist. I'd certainly give up a point in either of those before BI. But if you're primarily PvE and have abandoned Arenas, I could see that. And you didn't ask me so feel free to ignore. :grin:

04-03-2008, 03:18 PM
But if you're primarily PvE and have abandoned Arenas, I could see that.I only do PvP (BG and Arenas) to waste time and don't really care if I do all that well. Teeth and Claws recommends giving up 2/2 Savage Fury for PvE players since Mangle isn't used all that often in Kitty PvE DPS. And that talent provides no benefit to bears. But that recommendation isn't so great for PvP players either.

04-03-2008, 03:18 PM
I think OTaC was right - give up points in savage fury if you can. Primal tenacity is also a reasonable one to give up. Depends on what you're going for though. If you're wanting to do mostly pvp, I'd probably give up feral instinct.

04-03-2008, 09:49 PM
Once your resilence gets up past 300 I would drop one point out of Survival of the Fittest and one point out of Primal tenacity.

NI PvP build (

I think this is the best build for maximum damage for cat PvP, wicked survival (both ILoP and NI !!) and still has the one more form of CC Natures Grasp.

This would be my build once I get back on. Vika keep us posted with ur success please, I want to see you with Idol of Terror and Badge of tenacity, and sick gear.

Gee I wish I left mu dps gear on for armory.

04-04-2008, 12:30 PM
Hmmm yeah that's pretty good Elymanrock. One problem for Vika though. She hates Warlocks! And Rogues. I kill them on sight. On principal. Because when they grow up, they're going to be arses. I keep finding Warlocks with no mana, sitting down and drinking. They still pwn me. It's frustrating as all. So Primal Tenacity is a must! And the Meta gem with 5% stun / fear resist is going on my head. I get all kinds of giddy when I fully resist stuns or fear. :buttrock:

So while I mostly agree, I'm going to siphon off the points you have in ILotp (2) and Naturalist (3) and go 3/3 in Primal Tenacity, 3/3 in SoF, and 3/3 in Intensity.

Intensity may not give the damage that Naturalist gives but I'll surrender 6% damage for an instant 20 rage (furor + intensity) to dish out some needed bear form lock downs (charge, bash, mangle, etc.). ILotP does not give a single point of extra DPS and relies on you critting. This is great in PvE and BG's, but against full S1 - S3 opponents, it's trash mostly. And while I'll take %crit on gear (I'm over 30% now) my main stat is Resilience and then Agi, Sta, and AP are all more important to me. So %crit is just icing on the cake.

There will be a lot of tuning in WotLK so I'm hoping they revamp our talent tree to tune some of the ambiguous talents (like Feral Instinct, Naturalist, and Intensity). I almost never cast Healing Touch yet Naturalist boosts all my Feral damage. And while aggro in instances is nice when I run them, I rely on Stealth and not being found in Arenas until I open.

Back to work. I should have some hard data by Monday. :physics:

04-04-2008, 02:17 PM
Does your character sheet's +healing entry reflect the "100% of agi == +healing" from this talent? Or do you just see the effects of the talent when you heal?

04-04-2008, 03:05 PM
I'll let you know. I'll be respeccing tonight probably. Needed to get "pre re-spec" information recorded to compare and contrast first. :evilgrin:

04-04-2008, 06:12 PM
Does your character sheet's +healing entry reflect the "100% of agi == +healing" from this talent? Or do you just see the effects of the talent when you heal?
The character sheet shows the +heal.

And might I say... I really love the new & improved NI. Free +heal without any gear sacrifices & HoT's that tic harder when I'm in stealth have me sold.

04-04-2008, 06:23 PM
Thanks. My crappy quest/drop kitty gear gives me ~450agi. That's quite a bit of +healing. In fact, that is more +healing than I currently have in my healing kit. :lol:

04-05-2008, 03:01 AM

I am a bit concern about removing points from Naturalist, it is a baseline damage increase.

You maybe better off removing the same points from Predatory Instincts. If you had to remove 3 points from somewhere and your choice between Naturalist or Predatory the maths works out that it is better to remove points from Predatory Instincts - remember it is only an increase to critical strike damage.

With the changes to NI Healing touch does have more potency than HoT as the ticks once you change into cat form are modified by the 20% not the agility boost. I am not sure about the mana efficient thou. I do use it as a 1st heal from a cyclone, then HoT up.

With Intensity and Natural Shapeshifter your mana usage will be great.

04-05-2008, 02:37 PM
Yeah actually I didn't take Intensity at all yet. I kept my points in Naturalist. In testing my rage generation, I was easily able to pop into bear, Feral Charge, and get a Bash off without Intensity. So I'm going with the 10% damage increase.

Okay the stats. I tested all my healing before I repsecced into NI, after, and after in cat form. Here's the data with my current + healing which displays as +480 (387 agi currently (

w/o NI = 284 a tick
NI w/o Cat = 364 a tick
NI w/ Cat = 437 a tick

w/o NI = 192 / 191 a tick
NI w/o Cat = 232 a tick
NI w/ Cat = 278 a tick

w/o NI = 46/92/138 a tick + 632 final
NI w/o Cat = 76/152/228 a tick + 770 Final
NI w/ Cat = 91/182/273 a tick + 924

Healing Touch
w/o NI = 2883
NI = 3502

So I kicked ILotP to the curve for PvP spec and put the 2 points there. I think I'll get much more traction. But if I were doing PvE or primarily Bear tanking, ILotP would get 2 points from somewhere.

04-05-2008, 03:25 PM
I did my respec last night to this build ( I don't do PvP, or at least I don't care how well I do at PvP. I tank often and do quit a bit (way more than I ever expected when I started my Druid) Kitty DPS. All in 5-mans.

I fully expect 20% kitty boost to be a bonus for my longevity when I Cat DPS since so many mobs have some odd AoE and/or I "off-tank" in cat form (caster mobs usually). The +agi == +healing should help quite a bit when I perform emergency healing (seems to happen 1-2 times per run).

All I lost from my previous spec was NG and 1 point from BI. I never remember to use NG, and I doubt I'll miss the 0.5s from pounce.

04-06-2008, 07:50 AM
Thanks for the report Vika,

Nice looking spec. I am glad you didn't gimp your dps.


04-08-2008, 07:09 AM
I've specced for Nurturing Instinct ever since the talent was introduced in the first place. It suits my slightly hybrid playstyle. With the latest changes it's really super-awesome so I'd say yes, get it. However, losing points in Naturalist is a tough deal; maybe consider removing points from something else, like say Thick Hide? Difficult to say without seeing your spec.. :>


04-11-2008, 06:59 AM
I ended up going with:

I was debating between either dropping 2 in primal tenacity, 2 in intensity, or savage fury, but couldnt quite decide lol, so I went with a mix. So far it seems to be working out nicely, I'm loving the fact that I had almost 700 +healing today raid buffed in my cat gear. >_>