Anyone care to provide with me with some info on the best heroics to start with.....


should hit 80 next week so will then look to start farming heroics but not sure where to start......

unless they go from easy to hard based on their location ? ie start with the likes of the Nexus and the harder heroics are the ones in the later Zones...Storm Peaks etc ?

for starting i would say nexxus is good. utgarde keep is also an option. utgarde contains the best tanking-staff and belt pre-naxx.
but for your first runs (until u have better gear) try to go with
ppl who can CC.
Heroics are on the same level or even harder then Naxx.
So if u are all new to 80, then the best healer wont hold u up against 3-4 mobs.

Try to run lvl 80 non-heroic for some gear and slowly progress into heroics. (start with the above, they are pretty easy if u have CC in group)

See I dove right into heroics right after I hit 80 and some have been a nightmare (can you say Halls of Stone) and others have been a complete pushover (Violet Hold, Utgarde Keep). I wasn't particularly well geared, but it might have been the people I went with. Either way, heroics feel a touch on the easy side except for a select few.

hmm ok thanks guys.

although i ran some normals in BC i did very few and indeed on numerous occasions my first time in a heroic instance was my first time in the instance ! not sure how my gear was but i did make the effort to get some of the best crafted items I could to go along with other gear.

and just yesterday someone who helped me out (from my friend list) on the Amphitheatre Q's said give him a shout for heroics when i reach 80 but dont ask him for normals....

this is usually the case with 'good' people i know. they want badges and the chance of better loot. so wont do normals. i'd prefer a good heroic grp to a poor normal PUG.

Thanks for the heads up on Utgarde S3R i will take a look a the items your mention to see their stats :)

So Nexus / Utgarde and maybe Violet Hold to start.

I hope to boost my gear almost as soon as i hit 80 with the likes of the :

Trollwoven set
Nerubhide Cape


Any site list the sort of stats i should have for starting heroics :

Stam
Armour
Dodge
AP
Crit

And i'll make sure we go in with 2 CC's to help out to begin with then.....

I'm sure if you start with items at or better than the #6-8 spot in this list (bear and cat mixed) you would be fine.

http://teethandclaws.blogspot.com/2008/12/pre-naxx-feral-worksheet.html

or this list (bear only)...

http://wowthinktank.blogspot.com/2008/12/druid-bear-t7-list-pre-and-post-304.html

If you have the Trollwoven set and the Nerubhide cape, you wil be plenty geared for any heroic, depending on your healer. My second heroic was Hall of Lightning, and I had 0 epics, and 0 heroic blues. Thankfully my healer was well geared and my DPS was intellegent.

I strongly reccomend, finding a group of friends/guildies and running H-VH everyday you play. It is super easy and has the best DPS staff, that is the second best tanking staff pre-naxx. H-VH takes about 20-30 mins to clear.

I would also toss H-Draktharon Keep in the regular mix too. Its cake and has the best tanking ring (besides JC patterns) pre-Naxx

Also, if you can run some of the more difficult heroics, you can run naxx. Jump in the Naxx-10 lfg everynow and then if you have a few hours. You may get lucky!

Nexus, Utgarde Keep, Drak'Tharon and Violet Hold are probably the easiest.

Halls of Lightning isn't bad but there's a bit of a coordination/idiocy check on some of the bosses that make it hard. Sadly if people are on their game it's a cake walk.

I did Gundrak the other night too and it wasn't too difficult. Also got the trinket and the pants off the last boss. Pants are pretty much the best you can get until T7 and the trinket is fairly win for now.

Personally, I'd hold off on getting the Trollwoven Girdle for this from H UK:

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37194

It's got a socket too unlike the Trollwoven which I had to stick a buckle on just to get my meta gem bonus. I'm suffering from a sever lack of gem slots at the moment. =/

The Nerubhide cloak though is awesome.

There's a huge difference between fresh off the bus 80 druids and fresh off the bus 80 pally/warrior/deathknights. Crit immunity. Assuming the druid isn't "special" and has maxed out SotF, the druid is going to be taking less damage overall than the other 3 classes.

After a while, the other 3 classes catch up and mitigate with parry/block/dodge and hit crit immunity as well, but it is NOWHERE near as easy for them as a few talent points.

Right into 80 I healed druids, dks and pallys. The Druid ( initially ) was easier to heal b/c of the lack of crits and the large healthpool buffer between being alive and dead.

Nexus, Utgarde Violet Hold should be easy assuming competent DPS and healer, even without CC.

thanks all.

20-30 mins for H VC sounds good Solar !

will have to check on that item later Syt as cant see wowhead atm via firewall. compare its stats to the trollwoven girdle.

the spaulders were down as low as 1k gold last night. the cloak i've seen for 1400g. not seen the girdle on the AH yet.

also like the look of a Titanium Earthguard Ring i keep seeing on the AH - tons stamina, a socket and dodge and def iirc ?? trouble is its on for like 4000g !


doubt 'm at #6-8 on that think tank list tlb. still mainly using my old bc badge and pvp merciless gear. not found upgrades in wrath so far but as i mentioned i'm expecting to be going straight into heroic so will have to see how i do.

any sorta expected/accepted stats, esp Armour & Stam (mabye dodge?)

I would say, shoot for 23-25k hp unbuffed to be able to handle a heroic. Armor should be +20k when shifted. Dodge I would say +30% shifted. Druids have a lot of flexibility on stats because we are automatically uncritable. So with enough CC, you could probably tank a heroic in full kitty gear. (in fact I do for H-VH/DrakTharon, then shift to bear gear for bosses)

I'm just starting to heal heroics, so I can't really comment directly, but one my guildmates posted this list, in order of increasing difficulty:

Nexus
Utgarde Keep
Violet Hold (Ethereal and Void Walker can be tough on healers)
Drak'Tharon (Skip dino if you are having issues)
Culling of Stratholme
Gundrak
Halls of Lightning (last boss requires healing)
Utgarde Pinnacle (Gauntlet is very difficult, Pallies are slightly better for this)
Halls of Stone (Brann's event can be quite difficult to keep him alive)
Occulus (Last boss requires a very good strategy)
Azjol Nerub
Old Kingdom (Jegoda requires a lot of burst DPS, Last boss can wreck healers)

cheers.

i need to get more stam then cos not at 23k unbuffed in bear :(

I'm just starting to heal heroics, so I can't really comment directly, but one my guildmates posted this list, in order of increasing difficulty:

Nexus
Utgarde Keep
Violet Hold (Ethereal and Void Walker can be tough on healers)
Drak'Tharon (Skip dino if you are having issues)
Culling of Stratholme
Gundrak
Halls of Lightning (last boss requires healing)
Utgarde Pinnacle (Gauntlet is very difficult, Pallies are slightly better for this)
Halls of Stone (Brann's event can be quite difficult to keep him alive)
Occulus (Last boss requires a very good strategy)
Azjol Nerub
Old Kingdom (Jegoda requires a lot of burst DPS, Last boss can wreck healers)

I'll definitely Azjol & Old Kingdom are 2 of the harder heroics around. Halls of Lightning ( last boss ) is deadly for anyone that has slow reactions.

well i actually made myself a couple of new blue leather items yesterday and added some of the 18 stam patches so up 21.8k HP unbuffed so getting better.

that's 3 BC epics finally replaced in Wrath.

Kheldar,

If you can make yourself the entire "Eviserator" set of druid gear or find a LW to make it for you (LW 420 I believe), then stam up all your slots with the +18 stam armor kits, you will easily meet the entry level heroic gear requirements. Just make sure to bring your favorite healer along and all is well!

EDIT: if you are a LW make sure to use your +90 stam enchant to bracers! :P

Hey Solar, i was looking through the Eviserator set and a fellow guildy just said last night he had made himself a couple of these items.

I need to compare some of them in certain slots with the epics i have from BC to make sure they are better....the one thing which put me off them was the +Res made them look more like a starter pvp set.

the +90 stam to bracers is that one of the 'linings' ? needs an arctic fur ? bought a couple last night for about 70g each. am told they are really low skinning rate.

is the nerubhide chitin stoopid money everywhere ? it like 20g+ on my server !

i got the epic Durable Nerubhide Cloak/Cape made last night all ready for 80 and i'm going to grind and buy mats for the Trollwoven Spaulders (and prob the Girdle to).

I have already made and am using the Dark Arctic Chestpiece and Dark Arctic Leggings - added 18 stam to the chest and a 45 stam and some Agi to the legs ? (Guildy gone with making Legging of Visceral Strikes which also look nice).

I'm going to need to look at my helm and gloves and wrists next - see if my Merciless Helm / Gloves and the something Dragonhide Wrists from my pvping are yet outclassed by Eviserator set. Same guildy plans to make himeself the Eviserator Facemask - its nice but it lack gem slots especially the meta ?

I'm using the lists on ThinkTank blog to see what i'm aiming for and how easy it is for me with limited time and a non raider to get it.

I do believe that for Wrath Blizz have supposedly added many more nice high level/quality BOE items for professions ?

i have to say the one item i do want to farm or buy when its not 3500g on the AH is a Titanium Earthguard neck....tons of STR and STAM, plus a socket and plus some Dodge and Def ? looks amazing for a tank. sure it was high on that think tank list to.

tried H-VC the other day and struggled a lot :(

decided the 3 of us need better gear b4 attempting it again.

could not down the 2nd boss.

could not down the 2nd boss.I assume you mean hVH....
Which boss was it? The first 2 bosses are random. They could be one of 6?

IMO, the hardest boss is the void walker boss. Too many folks don't see the adds and/or don't kill them. Which means you need an uber healer to make it thru that event.

The other boss that can be difficult is the boss you have to kite along the stairs, but once you figure that out it isn't so bad.

The eyeball dude and the dog are just tank-n-spank. The bird people are the same except you need to kill the boss before the adds rather than after the adds.

The galloping water dude's trick is to use the red knobs around the room every time he explodes. There are 3 knobs on the ground floor and 2 on the upper floor. But 90% of the time I've never had to use the knobs on the upper floor. As the tank I grab the first knob right by the water ramp. Your dps team should do the next 2-3 knobs while everyone else just tries to avoid the adds. Once you "use" a knob, the building's security system will kill all of the adds. And the boss reforms. Repeat.

The last boss (which is the same for every run) is just tank-n-spank. But she hits kind of hard.

BBB did a couple of tanking videos for the two hardest bosses (kite dude and purple dude). Watch them in HQ mode.
http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/02/18/bear-video-violet-hold-part-1-of-3/
http://thebigbearbutt.com/2009/02/19/bear-video-violet-hold-part-2-of-3/

yeah VH tlb.

umm well i'd never been there before so asking me about the bosses....

the first one was called 'water' boss by the 2 high geared mages. his water shield kept exploding and then little things started coming down from the outside to the middle where we were fighting.

the 2nd on i'd have to say was a voidwalker - it looked rather like the boss in Arcatraz - the one who opened up the black holes ?


i'll take a look at the videos for next time :) cos i want that staff !

the first one was called 'water' boss by the 2 high geared mages. his water shield kept exploding and then little things started coming down from the outside to the middle where we were fighting.That's boss that you need to use the red knobs around the room to destroy the adds and make him reform. Though if you have enough AoE DPS you can just kill the adds without using the knobs.the 2nd on i'd have to say was a voidwalkerThat, IMO, is the toughest boss in there.

Watch the videos...

ahha no one said about red knobs. i was just trying to kill adds and getting bounced all over the place ? probably made it difficult for healer.

then the boss came back so i took him back.

talking of healers - how are pallys in 5 mans ? ours said he struggled a bit as lack of spell options - no HOT's and only able to heal one person at a time with a spell cast of nearly 2.5 seconds ?

anyone got a pally healer or know about them from in guild ?

great - so we got hardest boss :( well it migt have served to highlight some of our gear deficiences.

i'm told the DK was doing poor dps - in fact it looked as though i did more dps than him from my recount.

however he has respecced since following some advice.

as much as i hate to say it... Void walker boss + warrior tank = ezmode...
spell reflect ftw, everyone stack on tank, ignore adds, and pwn pwn pwn...
i haven't even tried to tank this instance, but i would imagine if everyone stacks on you, and your dps is leet, you guys might be able to get away with the same strategy if you're tanking all the adds... i have NO idea whether that will work or not

if you're tanking all the adds... i have NO idea whether that will work or notYou can't tank the adds. Only those with the debuff can even see them. I'm not sure how spell reflect would help anyone but the tank. The rest of the party still gets hit by the adds...

The other very subtle effect VW boss has is his "shroud of darkness" buff. When it is up, any damage you do to him will reduce the healing you receive by 20%. And it can stack up to 5 times, making you unhealable for a short period of time.

The adds alone are not really that tough. Combined with the Shroud of Darkness which everyone just ignores, makes it very difficult on the healer.

Edit: after reading wowhead comments, I can see how a warrior makes this easy. There is a bug that allows the warrior to spell reflect even if the warrior cannot see the adds. IOW with spell reflect up, the adds will kill themselves after 2-3 spells. That said, I've done this instance maybe 10 times (tanked it probably 8 of those 10 times). And never had a warrior tank. Though we don't always get the VW boss either.

I have tanked H-VH more times than I can count (at least a dozen trying to get "Staff of Trickery"). The void guy is still the hardest to deal with. The adds are very managable, but the debuff that Tlbj spoke of is what wipes groups time and time again. If people have DBM, its very obvious when to start and stop attacks, and its crucial for the tank to do so.

He's really quite easy now. As a bear I just spam my Esc key as soon as the warning comes up, and pray to god at least one of the DPS is smart enough to AoE those adds down at when its their turn. Seems like the healer is always the one who gets shifted though...thx blilzzard!

I wasn't even aware of the SoD debuff until I watched BBB's videos. I'm sure I killed that boss 3-4 times before watching the video. The first few times I ran it, the person with the void shift debuf would try to take out the adds. Later, we just ignored the adds and treated the whole fight as a tank-n-spank. But you need an uber healer to do that. More DPS would help as well.

I haven't tanked him since I became aware of the SoD debuf. But knowing would make it quite a bit easier on the healer.

yea, i was actually very lucky in that the Staff of Trickery dropped for me the first time i ran it... Hopefully i'll have the same luck when we down KT tonight in Naxx25... I have a couple of Huntards to roll against though... : /

hmmm well i guess a bit better gear then time to pwn him !

at least i got a bit more of an idea now what to do on him ! stuff seemed to be firing out rapidly downing the clothies. i think the healer stuggled to keep up - hence wondering on the relative strengths and weaknesses of a pallly healer for H-VH.

i'm also going to update DBM as i've not done this recently and its not got Wrath bosses listed atm !

/prays Staff drops next time I visit

...
/prays Staff drops next time I visit

gl for that! :texla:

ty s3R :)

it would be such a massive upgrade from my blue staff from HoL.

it would be such a massive upgrade from my blue staff from HoL.The staff drops off the last boss, which is always in the run. And you may not get the VW again, or you could get it every time.

I'd run it daily until you get the staff (once I got the staff, it dropped on the next 2 runs.). There is a really nice DPS trinket in there as well (+55 hit??? on use 600+ AP??).

Violet Hold is sort of annoying for new tanks if only because of the lotto luck bosses. Personally I'd head to Nexus or Utgarde Keep. The belt in Utgarde Keep is about as good as the trollwoven girdle and comes with an extra gem slot.

A lot of people cry that druids have crit immunity off the bat and therefore are overpowered as fresh 80 tanks but that's complete BS. We have crit immunity but until you're sporting epics, you will be one of the squishiest tanks out there next to DKs because of your lack of solid mitigation. Your armor will be low for a while as well. That said once you get yourself a nice stash of gear, you get to rock house.

The +55 Hit trinket is from Heroic Nexus and awesome for getting hit capped as a kitty. I can't think of anything decent that drops for bears though.

Heroic Drak'Tharon keep shouldn't be too bad. King Dred and the little raptors can hurt a bit but overall the instance is pretty smooth. Also the Key-stone Great Ring drops from that instance and is an awesome tanking ring for bears.

If you don't have luck getting the Staff of Trickery, there's a blue staff you get from being Honored with the Kirin Tor. http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44174 That's a nice staff to tide you over for tanking. A lack of agi but it comes with some dodge and a good chunk of stam.

The staff drops off the last boss, which is always in the run. And you may not get the VW again, or you could get it every time.

I'd run it daily until you get the staff (once I got the staff, it dropped on the next 2 runs.). There is a really nice DPS trinket in there as well (+55 hit??? on use 600+ AP??).
i need get organised on a grp to run this regulary so we get to know it. with so few people in the guild and my limited time its difficult and we always have to pug things with 2 people.



The +55 Hit trinket is from Heroic Nexus and awesome for getting hit capped as a kitty. I can't think of anything decent that drops for bears though.

If you don't have luck getting the Staff of Trickery, there's a blue staff you get from being Honored with the Kirin Tor. http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44174 That's a nice staff to tide you over for tanking. A lack of agi but it comes with some dodge and a good chunk of stam.
well we are hoping to run Heroic Nexus tonite. i've even got the daily quest for it from the weekend.

that trinket sounds nice. cant see that staff Sy via firewall and have about zero Kirin rep so it will have to wait. I'm using a blue staff from normal HoL. I'm aiming for the AC boots first rep wise, need 10k for exalted.

i certainly feel my gear is sub-optimal for heroics atm. i just need a 'bit' more everywhere. i basically run with 30k HP self buffed and about 32k armour. i think my dodge and crit need improvement as i probably need more healing than i should.

my new trinket is a help as it seems to proc a lot.

The following is ONLY for your bear gear:

Get the staff from Utgarde Keep Heroic Endboss.
Best tanking staff pre-naxx.

Also from Utgarde Keep the epic leather-belt from the endboss.
In my opinion the best tanking-belt ingame currently if u wanna have expertise on it.

This should be your first priority for your tank-set.
After that run Drak'tharon until your eyes bleed till you get the ring from the endboss.

As for tanking boots, i would go for the "Hateful Gladiators Boots Of Triumph". They cost 50k honor but are the best tanking boots until Loatheb Naxx25.

BTW: Khel 30k hp and 32k armor are enough to MT naxx10.

cheers s3R.

will have to try UK - is that easier than VH ?

epic ring from Drak ? will have to check it out later to see its stats. i'm using the epic BoE Titanium one and a nice blue Ring of Earthern Might.

i'm going to try to do some pvp very soon - i was looking to get a good helm with a meta as they are in such short supply elsewhere and i've had a meta with +armour for ages !

i'll check those boots against the rep ones from AC.

In that case s3R - i guess maybe my crit/dodge are lower than they should be - or at least i feel they are lower ?

(or the healer struggled due to nothing to do with my tanking!)

The boots from AC are cat-dps-boots. And really good ones.
The +HIT really helps with DPS.

But i think +HIT is really not a problem as tank.
A druids aggro-generation is fine even if he misses once in a while.

For the helm:
Try to do Wintergrasp as much as possible.
U can spend 40 marks from Wintergrasp to buy a kick-ass helm
with almost the same stats as the T7-helm from naxx10 (less AP)
At this way u will also get the honor to buy the boots.

The ring from Drak has the same stats as the blue one u are wearing. Just much more of them! ^^

will have to try UK - is that easier than VH?Yes...

In order (easy to hard), I'd put...

UK
CoS
Nexus
DTK
Gun
VH

The last two are more about boss mechanics than anything else. The first 3 are straight tank-n-spank. The middle two aren't that bad either. Mobs just seem to hit harder than the first 3.

And with VH it all depends on which bosses, you get. If you get the eyeball and the dog, it is easier than UK.

With a few crafted items (which you can afford if you have a DMC), you should be able to tank the first 3 the moment you ding 80.

Avoid HoL, AN, UP and HoS until you have a solid group with good DPS, great healer and well gear'd tank.

I've never tried old kingdom, or Oculus so I'm not sure about those...

cheers guys.

i better look at Wintersgrasp. it that not the one that only starts at certain times ? is it easy to get the marks - do u get them each time you play with more or something if you win ?

i was planning on doing some old school AV for honour to buy stuff. i assume that items from Wintersgrasp are better ? i really need a helm so that would be good.

you maybe right on the boots s3R - i think i need to actually find a better set of tanking boots iwth good stam and agi. although hit is good as mine is low in tank set.


well we are planning on H-Nexus in a couple hours so have to see how that goes and how much rep it gives me :)

self buffed i'm looking at 33% crit and 38% dodge.

yea, if you're looking at grinding honor, Wintergrasp is hands down the way to do it... There are 4 dailies that reward about 1200 honor (along with 13G) that can be done in a single half hour battle:
Victory in Wintergrasp
Slay them All!
Stop the Siege
Defend the Siege

there are definitely a ton more dailies that award honor, but like i said... those 4 in a half hour (along with the Daily BG) and the honor from killing despicable alliance (:P) should net you easily 10,000 honor a day... not bad for about 45 minutes worth of work (depending on what the daily BG is)

wow thats amazing amount of honour in such a short time.

o, as far as the battle goes, it's very similiar to Strand of the Ancients...
Talk to Magister What's-his-nose next to the Horde Battlemaster in the Sunreaver's Sanctuary... He will tell you how long before the next battle starts. Once the battle has started, he opens a portal to the Wintergrasp zone.
If you're attacking, you get ported from Dal to the West side of the Wintergrasp zone... you definitely want to be a part of a raid group, so you can benefit from, and be a benefit to your fellow Hordies as you gleefully kill Alliance and rack up the honor... you have to kill a few people in order to get a Wintergrasp rank. Once you get a rank, and your faction has control of a vehicle workshop, you can talk to a goblin engineer who will make you a seige vehicle. At the lowest rank, you get a little catapult, which shoots plague barrels that are pretty effective at AoE alliance-killing... you pretty much want to use those on the turrets of the walls where those lousy stinkin no good filthy alliance like to hang out and attack...
once you've moved up another rank or 2, you get a vehicle that's similiar to the Strand of the Ancients siege vehicle, and that's where you can really do dome damage on the fortress walls... once you've gotten past the second wall, that's when "defending the siege" will show as completed... keep pushing! you're almost there! destroy the forstress door just like the Keep in SotA and touch the orb inside for control on Wintergrasp for the next 2.5 hours! Congratulations on vanquishing the vile Alliance form YOUR area, and having the benefit of collecting Stone Shards, and access to the Vault :)

sounds easy skw ! :o

yea, it's easy, and fun!

by far the best dailies that WotLK has to offer! I used to set my alarm for when the Spirit Towers were up in Terrokar Forest... I should do the same for Wintergrasp... If i grind enough honor to put a decent PvP healing set together, i may be able to faceroll to 1800's bracket with a good hunter or DK...

on another note, i just got the [Arathi Basin Perfection] (http://thottbot.com/ach165) and [Let's Get This Done] (http://thottbot.com/ach159) achievements yesterday... i thought i'd NEVER get them! now all i need to do is grind victories and rep for the Master achievement :)

Took the liberty of armory-ing you Kheldar. To be honest, your gear looks pretty good for heroics, though I honestly think the badge necklace is a lot better than the Titanium Earthguard Chain. Dodge + Hit rating.

For helms, Heroic Violet Hold and Occulus drop leather helms with Meta. Though really, with your gear you should be able to start tearing through 10 mans.

Though really, with your gear you should be able to start tearing through 10 mans.

Khels problem is time. Not equip! ;)

on another note, i just got the [Arathi Basin Perfection] (http://thottbot.com/ach165) and [Let's Get This Done] (http://thottbot.com/ach159) achievements yesterday... i thought i'd NEVER get them! now all i need to do is grind victories and rep for the Master achievement :)
gratz skw.

i managed the Frostwolf Perfection one but never any of the other ones.


Took the liberty of armory-ing you Kheldar. To be honest, your gear looks pretty good for heroics, though I honestly think the badge necklace is a lot better than the Titanium Earthguard Chain. Dodge + Hit rating.

For helms, Heroic Violet Hold and Occulus drop leather helms with Meta. Though really, with your gear you should be able to start tearing through 10 mans.
thanks Sy. hope i logged out in bear not cat !

yeah the badge one is nice - maybe when i get some emblems i will get it :p

not looked at badge loot tbh cos not done heroics yet. not sure a neck is my 1st choice if item for when i do get some emblems though.......ring / chest / boots ?



Khels problem is time. Not equip! ;)
indeed is it!!

if i had time i'd have solo'd Naax 25 etc by now

:flipbg: :band:



btw - we sucked in Heroic Nexus last night. us 3 guildies, the naax geared mage and a pug mage.

we got a boss called Grand Magus Telestra. could we kill him ? no ! healer struggled cos he said he was continually being an animal and could not heal ?

i am thinking of speccing oomkin and letting the DK go tank cos i'm getting frustrated and fed up of trying so called easy heroics and failing :(

Edit : if anyone has chance could they armoury Suldren and Brinny on EU Bronze Dragonflight.

Suggest any improvements or deficiences you see for the 3 of us running heroics.

ty