Guys, a quick question: I started fussing with the talent tree again, and I was wondering what you guys thought of the following build:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZgGGsfrdceRIcuAob

I'm not sure about Survival Instincts yet. I haven't used it. If I dropped Survival Instincts, I think I'd put one more point in Feral Aggression.

Thoughts? I've been arguing with another bear tank recently about the "correct" build and we just can't seem to agree on it. He's still going with the Resto points - up through OoC. I really am not sure I feel that OoC is necessary for tanking, but I love the buff from Mark/Gift of the Wild.

I'd love to hear your ideas/suggestions.

If I were building a pure bear build I would start with this 0/57/10 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZEGGscrzceocczVobA) build. And put those last 4 points where ever...

FA is a nice boss debuff that is often overlooked by us bears
2/2 iMotW is a really nice group buff
iLotP is nice for 5-man, meh for 10/25-man.
OoC, SA, KotJ, PI are kitty talents
iMangle is a 50/50 talent.
IW is really a 50/50 bear talent, but does reduce mob damage quite a bit for just about every mob and boss except for a couple in Naxx.

If I were primarily a bear (which is seems I'm becoming), I'd put those last 4 points in iMangle and OoC (dailies/questing).

If I had to do some kitty DPS in a group, with the above build, I'd just Mangle, Rake, SR, Mangle-->Rip, Mangle->FB, etc...

while you're leveling, i would say that you don't really need a whole lot of bear talents besides thick hide and SotF, unless you plan on leveling solely in instances (my GM leveled his alt shammy healer that way, and did it fairly quickly)

my suggestion is: the more damage you can dish out, the quicker you're going to kill quest mobs, etc. i would suggest picking up OoC as soon as possible, even before you have berzerk.

personally, i would forget about Feral Aggression, Survival Instincts, and Natural Reaction until you ding 80, then re-spec for tanking heroics and raids. for 70, i would go with something like this: 0/45/16 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGcfzb0jR0GuZ0Eczb) and work my way up the rest of the feral tree, taking all 5 in Rend and Tear, then Berzerk, then filling in wherever you want. That way, you're uncrittable and have decent armor with SotF, and Thick Hide. You should be able to tank any of the appropriate level instances, and be able to dish out some pain while killing 20 of X mob, 30 of Y mob, etc etc.

download Questhelper, or something like it, and watch the levels fly by... Feral druids require so little downtime while leveling it's straight up rediculous.

Honestly, I have a quest partner (A mage - a deliciously adorable mage) that I normally work with. It beats questing solo and he can really dish it out.

I was looking at end game, total bear build. I'm not interested at all in DPS.

I didn't really see OoC being a great tanking necessity, tbh. I rarely find myself starved for rage, unless I'm tanking an instance that's fairly low level.

I'm looking at an end game build for just bear. For leveling I'm not even worried about my spec. I know that having a questing buddy eats up kill XP, but I figure we can grind through the quests quicker, and having a buddy doesn't affect your quest experience gained.

So the build posted above, would this be a suitable end game raiding/instancing bear build? (Assuming I'll never be asked to DPS ever- we have plenty of DPS and I'm willing to skip a raid or two where my OT/MT services won't necessarily be needed).

You do not need OoC for tanking. Period. While you might have a few moments of little to no rage (beginning of a trash pull??), you can't guarantee OoC will proc which makes it useless.

You'd be better for putting that one point in Intensity if you are concerned about rage at the beginning of a fight.

That said, for leveling, it would be stupid not to take OoC. Respec out of it when you reach 80. Even if you are leveling with a buddy, you will be in cat form 95% of the time. And for leveling take 2/2 iLotP, you and your DPS buddy will appreciate it immensely.

OoC is a must have.
I have rage-problems on many bosses in naxx25.
And at beginning when DPS is right behind me in aggro i need every rage i can get.

Furor is a must have for trash pulls.
DPS wont wait for u to get hit once or twice.

If u like the improved gift of the wild that much, then
I would suggest this built (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGsfrzceRccziobE0z)

OoC is a must have.
I have rage-problems on many bosses in naxx25.
And at beginning when DPS is right behind me in aggro i need every rage i can get.

Furor is a must have for trash pulls.
DPS wont wait for u to get hit once or twice.

If u like the improved gift of the wild that much, then
I would suggest this built (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGsfrzceRccziobE0z)

I have similar experience. I much appreciate OoC. I too, manage to have rage issues on bosses, especially your slow swinging bosses. A dodge or two early can be rough on the rage bar.

Understood, but the DPS should be smart enough to allow the tank to generate threat before they start nuking the boss. Alas, I've been stuck in PuG nightmares recently, so I understand the beginning of a fight being a miserable rage/threat generating experience.

I'll figure out a leveling build, but what my friend and I were initially bickering about was the end game, final and ultimate bear build. I'm torn between a few different specs. I might have to try them out and see how they work. I just can't see spending that many points in the resto tree to get OoC for end game raiding...

I currently have zero Resto points...I may respec soon to give the resto talents a chance at leveling, but I tank a LOT and found that end game dungeons didn't really need the resto talents other than maybe IMotW. It's a nice buff for the group with GotW...but I'm just REALLY torn about the whole thing. Maybe I'll just experiment a little...

I'll figure out a leveling build, but what my friend and I were initially bickering about was the end game, final and ultimate bear build. I'm torn between a few different specs. I might have to try them out and see how they work. I just can't see spending that many points in the resto tree to get OoC for end game raiding...


The points are not too bad. It takes 11 points in Resto to get OoC. That leaves ~60 points for Feral tree. The only time that is not enough is if you are trying for a Kitty and Bear build. Which blizzard specifically stated was not really possible.

I strongly reccomend a full kitty build, including OoC, and then just shift bear when you need to tank. (Make sure you take 3/3 in SotF) then go all DPS talents. You can easily tank non-heroic dungeons without being bear spec.

Well that's the thing. I'm the new "go-to" tank, since I'm willing to try and tank just about anything from world bosses to heroic dungeons and everything in between. I'm not really concerned with my leveling, it's going along really quickly, even without a questing partner.

I'm just looking for end game suggestions. I'll toy with leveling with OoC. I remember having that for leveling from 66+ and it was nice. So I might go and respec. I just really need five minutes where I'm not being dragged off for this or that where I can focus on setting up my build for leveling. Being strapped for gold right now isn't helping matters either...

Well, the "best" build is going to change based on your gear and content needs. I usually go with this build.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/druid/talents.html?tal=000000000000000000000000000050323 21303222103531233030133120350001000000000000000000

You could drop Imp-MotW for more furor, and many drop 2/2 in Bash to cap R&T. R&T is purely DPS, so I tend to drop it a bit for shorter bash CD. Once you have faced Kel'Thuzad, you will know why! :)

Here's the 0/59/12 I'm using:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGsfrzceRccuVoby0z

Just some thoughts on stuff:
ImpMotW: This is because I'm usually the only druid in my raid, and I had 1 point left over, so I snipped one from Furor. Due to the GCD, the 5th Furor point is of very marginal use, I can't even notice it missing. You could skip this and just go 5/5 Furor for leveling, though.

BI: Pretty much a waste. I'd thought I'd use it for a more reliable interrupt when tanking, but... naaah. Or for a better pounce .... but really, catform grinding is all about the Manglespam.

PT: This seemed okay in theory, but again, bosses just don't stun much. I think it's more a PvP talent in reality. I don't miss it since I dropped it.

I'd like to ideally eventually be able to drop PP (with enough expertise) and get Imp. Mangle back, but that's the only thing I dropped I miss. I guess I could also fuel it with R&T points, but I need to balance my longterm tank vs. dps portions.

Anyway, the build's got pretty much every reasonable PvE tank talent and still has most of the good DPS stuff.

It makes sense. I don't seem to get stunned much since I started leveling in NR either. The old bosses seemed to use stun effects more...or maybe it's just me.

I haven't had a problem with rage so far, but I may in the future as better gear starts to come my way. I almost hate that they split it so that you have to pick kitty or bear, but at the same time, I guess it helps define our roles and helps people have the right expectations of us in raids. Obviously a bear-spec is not going to put out as strong DPS as a kitty will. It was mostly just a curious question to begin with.

Besides, I can't really argue with you guys. You're at 80 and you've tested your talents against bosses I've not had the chance to meet up with yet. I'm still learning :)

Understood, but the DPS should be smart enough to allow the tank to generate threat before they start nuking the boss.
BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

No, I am not a cynic.

Welcome back, Des!:rolling:

BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

No, I am not a cynic.



very much THIS...

OST dps'ers (with the exception of those that have tanking alts, or who have tanked in the past) do NOT understand about giving the tank some time to exchange a few whacks with a boss for the sake of getting a jump on the threat meter. When I was tanking in BC (and a couple times while leveling in LK) I remember a few heroics where i would say in /p: "Give me a few seconds before you open up the can of whoop-ass on him... I can take the hits" lol

SO many dps'ers are just ancey to start hitting their2435234525452335243528247269 keys

What i would recommend for "end-game"-tanking:

- get 11 points in Resto:
5/5 Furor (u dont need imp. MotW cause u will almost never run without a heal-druid, which can do the buffing, u can make 50/50 on the mats with him)
5/5 Naturalist - one of the best talents out there.
Damage is success in end-game-raiding cause u will need the mass aggro-generation on many bosses.
1 OoC - a must-have. It's the best talent u can get with 1 point. So spend it.

- feral-tree:
Leave out Bash, u will have melees with u who can interrupt casts.
5/5 R&T: a must-have for end-game-tanking. Maul is your #1 aggro and damage ability as bear. So go and increase it's usefullness
3/3 Imp. Mangle: allows the best max-thread-rotation.

U dont need Primal Tenacity for PvE. The only stunning boss i currently is Archavon(i think). Trash only a few.

2/2 Shredding Attacks: i would take it, there are some situations where u need every rage u can get, also awesome for kittie.

If u have 3 points left at the end, then go for King of the Jungle. 15% more damage(threat) for 10 secs is pretty nice.
I always use Enrage + Barkskin for a aggro-burst on the boss.


I was MT at all Bosses in WotLK(except Thaddius, cause i dish out more damage then any other tank we have).
And these are my experiences.
But eventually u will find YOUR way to make us Druids prode of another WTF-IMBA-PAWNAGE-TANK :grin:

U dont need Primal Tenacity for PvE. The only stunning boss i currently is Archavon(i think). Trash only a few.

*This talent actually made the difference for our guild being able to down Maexxena the first time* Now that I out gear her, its not needed, but it was very helpful.*


If u have 3 points left at the end, then go for King of the Jungle. 15% more damage(threat) for 10 secs is pretty nice.
I always use Enrage + Barkskin for a aggro-burst on the boss.


I have never had points in KotJ, but sounds like a good strat.

The one talent I don't see get much press is IW. Seems like it would be a must-have for a bear tank. What is its true value? And, what about FA? Assuming you don't have a warrior around, how much of a benefit does it really provide?

Regarding iMotW, maybe in a 25-man you'll have a tree, but that is not too likely in 5 or 10-mans. Our guild of 100+ lvl 80s only has 1 (and no lazer chickens). And she is barely gear'd enough to handle an easy heroic.

BWAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

No, I am not a cynic.

Welcome back, Des!:rolling:

OMG HI OIYSTERS! And yes, I had trouble typing that with a straight face for sure! And ugh, DPS "behaving?"...:banghead:

I'm not geared at all well enough for an easy heroic yet, but it will come with time. I just assumed that IMotW would be a good raid buff. We have a resto druid, a laser turkey, and another feral so far, but whether or not they'll have that talented up or be able to show up for every raid is questionable. If giving up the Bash talent is all I would have to do in order to pick up that talent, I don't see it as being a mistake. I can always talent out of it if I find that we've always got another druid who can do the improved buff. That's a talent I wouldn't pick up until later on...and for PuG raiding, it's likely I'll want it as the group make up is so uncertain.

I really just didn't see how the resto talents were going to be that incredibly beneficial for end game, but as I look through them, there seem to be a few I'm considering now.

As for FA, I like it for early dungeon/heroic/raid until you're well geared. Right now, any damage reduction I can possibly get to aid in tanking so my healer doesn't think I'm a mana-sponge is beneficial IMHO.

For IW, I like it, but I find that a lot of mobs seem to be immune. Aside from that, there are a lot of other classes with talents that can slow a mob down - ie a Frost Mage or another druid with IW. For tanking, it almost seems counterproductive. If we generate rage based on how hard/fast someone is hitting us, wouldn't slowing them down also then slow our rage gen?

I'm not sure how the mechanics work on IW, unfortunately, as my tanking experiences are somewhat limited right now. I think I might just take a peek at some tanking builds as I level to see what looks nice. It's hard being labeled a "tank" because rarely do I DPS or anything so that I can watch another tank and see how they're specced and how it all works. I guess it'll be a little trial and error for me maybe once I hit 80, just to see what I like and what works with my druid.

Important distinction on IW. Many many classes slow the "MOVEMENT" of a target, IW slows the "ATTACK SPEED" and movement.

IW is a huge mitigation tool, the problem is, no meter measures the benefit. I strongly reccomend getting it. 20% reduction in incoming damage. Thats like having barksin up all the time!

@Dest, you will lose some rage, but not enough that you will notice it. As a bear your #1 job is always to survive. Yes you also have to hold threat, but dead bears don't hold threat and Oom healers don't heal bears. So if threat is a large concern, your DPS needs to adjust until your gear can support their impatience. Seriously if every DPSer gave you 1 extra GCD, they would never stand a chance to out threat you. (Easier said than done though.)

Also, many of the talents in the Resto tree have huge DPS/TPS aspects to them. Naturalist = 10% extra damage!

I was just scoping out those talents. I'll respec eventually. I want to play around a little more with the talent tree and try and come up with a good bear spec. I don't ever DPS, and leveling hasn't been an issue so far.

So far as obnoxiously impatient DPS...Eh. I'm not the timid little tank I used to be. I know what I'm doing, and if the group listens, we are easily successful. Two things I hate: High repair bills and an instance taking an extra hour because of wipes.

I've also noticed, since I started becoming more assertive that I'm asked to instance a LOT more. Which is why I'm really leaning toward a mostly bear build even at 72. I don't deal well with idiot DPSers and dumb mistakes being made (like sheeping skull, after we've already called out the CC/target order). O_o

Solar, I misread the tooltip. I have IW- but only really notice it helping in kitty. I don't pay much attention in bear when I'm tanking as to the effects of these talents because I'm usually watching threat meters and yelling at mages. So I rarely notice any immunity msgs or slower/faster attacks. I'll watch more tonight, as I'll be hitting Nex tonight for a little more practice.

Now, the other question I just thought of...in BC, on raids, I remember being told a lot that a druid would never MT for this or that or the other thing. Have any of you noticed any fights that a druid should be pushed aside for? I'd like to MT some raids, especially since I work with about 3 different guilds right now filling in as tank when needed and when I can. Just a curious question. Any additional advice on Spec is always appreciated.

I'm glad to have had IW clarified a bit. Here I thought it was just movement speed (and I couldn't figure out why a bear would want it), especially considering the rage situation. But if the rage loss is barely noticeable and it adds to survivability, then I'm all for it! Anything that keeps healers from hating me is great news!

Druids CAN mt all current content. Some other classes are better suited to do so though. For example, our Warrior always tanks Loatheb. Its a fight that relies on eating very minimal damage due to short healing periods. On the other hand I always tank bosses like Maexxena, because it requires a tank that can just stand there and eat it!

Blizz made the encounters so that any tank literally can tank any situation (at least 10-man), but if you have a good mix of tanks in the raid, certain fights will simply be assigned to certain tanks based on class.

Thankfully there are more bear friendly encounters than not. I am technically the OT for our raids, but I main tank most encounters...if that makes any sense!

In 5-man, I have occasional rage issues, but in raid I am rarely concerned about my rage. Most elite mobs will fill your rage bar with 2-3 hits.

Thankfully there are more bear friendly encounters than not. I am technically the OT for our raids, but I main tank most encounters...if that makes any sense!

not really Solar :p

i went with 0/55/16 even though i rarely tank these days...yet... /sigh

I don't talent into IW because I always have at least one DK and usually more in every raid I run. Icy Touch overwrites IW every time, so there's no value in my talenting into it. It's very effective when it's not being overwritten and I talent into it for our Sarth w/drakes attempts. I also really liked it when I was running a lot of 5 mans. If I somehow raided without a single DK or Warrior (TClap overwrites it too), I would definitely have it.

I have MT'd everything for our guild Des, and you can too. My current spec is pretty cat form friendly, too.:axe:

What makes a bear-tank so strong:
- enormous amount of health
- most physical damage-reduction
- most thread-generation (never battled against a pala though)
- great multi-mob-tank

And as Oiysters said:
If u are in a 25man-raid u wont need IW cause there will be others who keep the debuff up.

- most thread-generation (never battled against a pala though)

you do rather well in thread generation s3R :rolling: :flipbg:

I guess I'll have to try and respec. I'll probably hit the armory and check out some of the builds here from my tanking friends.

Yesterday in AN was the first time I found myself completely rage starved for the first few seconds of a boss fight. It was a little scary because it's never happened before! So I'm definitely looking at respeccing.

Quick question - completely off topic...on multimob tanking, I need to make sure I'm doing it right, since I had an Epic Fail of a trash pull yesterday.

Is this a good strat for multi-mobs? (It's been awhile, I'm rusty)...

1. Mark them - explain target order
2. Smack around target #1 and swipe (to keep the other baddies focused on me) until there's a decent amount of threat
3. Tab-target to the other baddies in the group and maul/mangle them to keep them from taking off and pounding on my healer or the DPS that's focused on the wrong guy?

it's Step 3 I'm not sure of. It's been awhile and tab-targeting seems to confuse the DPS sometimes.

I think this is more of a threat mechanic question actually...If I'm hitting Skull a lot, and all my DPS is focused on skull, none of my DPS should be pulling aggro on any of the other mobs right? (Assuming they aren't using AoE's...of course)

For heal aggro- obviously I throw swipe in there to keep the baddies focused on me. But I'm having trouble where the DPS inevitably pulls aggro on something that isn't my main target...and mages with AoE's...argh...Suggestions?

(Sorry if that's a confusing wording...I'm not awake yet).

Des,

I don't think you are doing anything wrong, if the DPS is behaving, you should always have uber threat. I normally don't even tab target these days. With Maul hitting a random second target, I normally have a mountain of threat on the remaining targets before the first one goes down.

ake sure you are hitting your Maul and Swipe together when there are more than two mobs to hold. Your maul will proc on its own goofy timer and your swipes will go out consitently.

If you are struggling with holding mobs with your swipe/maul combo, it may be more of a positioning issue. I know for me, the biggest problem I had with threat was getting my bear butt in a place where I was hitting everything.

The best technique I can reccomend is what I call the "backup L":

Once mobs are surrounding you (back/side mobs not being hit by swipe) you take 2-3 steps back, pivot 60-90 degress and another 2-3 steps back. This forces mobs to wedge in front of you. It sounds a bit complicated, but once you have it down, I think you will have much less trouble with mobs.

DPS (good ones) will hate you because its tough for them to stay behind the mobs....but lets face it...they have probably made your life hell once or twice too!

*Make sure not to back a cleaving mob into your healer...not that I have ever done that.*

it's Step 3 I'm not sure of. It's been awhile and tab-targeting seems to confuse the DPS sometimes.DPS should never assist a tank when there are multiple mobs. I tab-target all the time after the first 3-4 swipes. Usually to put a lacerate on a mob so my mauls do more damage from RnT.

The best technique I can reccomend is what I call the "backup L":I do the same, or if the group is in a nice tight pack after the initial pull and a swipe or two, I just run thru them and turn around. This puts their back to your party and allows you see where they go if they run off.

One more tanking trick, I often do...

When you know you have more trash after the current trash pull, or if the boss is next and you know everyone knows the boss, I often let the last trash mob beat on me without doing a whole lot of damage (I might not use maul, for example). This allows my rage bar to fill up. That way I can start the next trash pack, or boss, with a nearly full bar. That helps quite a bit.

These days I just mark the skull and that's it. Once the skull has been focused down I have enough threat on everything else from Maul/Swipe spam that I never have to worry about losing threat. If your dps refuses to focus the skull, set them straight AND let them die. Usually solves the problem.

Truthfully, if they focus the skull for one or two attacks before they aoe that is enough, but I don't tell them that just because they always seem to angling for a way to push the meters a little more...the idiots.

The key is to just Maul/Swipe spam and don't worry about Lacerate or Mangle on trash packs, unless there is a mini "boss" in the trash that you want to make sure you hang on to.

Very helpful advice, guys! Thank you! Letting trash beat on me to fill up a rage bar for a boss fight I already do. I LOVE being able to open up with a flurry of RAWR before the DPS even gets near the boss.

y husband has an amazing caster set, so often times he'll heal for me in the instances. We sit side by side, so he'll look over and say "Hunter's focused on the wrong mob and has aggro- Heal him or let him die?" We're brutal, but with him being a feral druid in a healer costume, it's important that he only has to worry about healing the tank, and not DPS that doesn't understand group dynamic.

I sometimes switch to the next target just before skull goes down in order to start building threat there, depending on the group. I learned a lot while tanking Emeriss about turning bosses with wicked frontal attacks/poisons away from the group. So we're good there. I think maybe it's just an issue with me directing the group better.

I suppose I'm the idiot, all in all, for thinking that by THIS point in the game, people understand the roles in groups for dungeons and understand target order, main focus, threat, etc.

I'll try tab-target Lacerate (as I didn't think about the increased damage, and therefore threat on additional targets). I didn't really think about running through the mobs to get their backs to my DPS either. That's a helpful trick! Thank you!I don't tab-lacerate until I have the pack well under control with swipe/maul (maybe 4-6 swipes). The lacerate just helps DPS the mobs down faster. I don't stack it, just one application per remaining mob is all you need to benefit from RnT.

For the most part, I find that my group's DPS really sucks (or at the very least is well below "normal"). I rarely get to party with guildmates that know how to DPS, so I help with DPS whenever I can...

Couple ways to deal with the casters:

1. Sleep pull. The casters are dragonkin and can be Hibernated. Cast Hibernate on caster A, shift to bear/feral charge caster B, Swipe spam to pick up the melee mobs.

2. Pallies and Rogues can stun, Hunters can use Silencing Shot, DK's can Death Grip the caster to you, etc. etc.

As tlbj said, tab-target for dps if you want but don't bother for general tanking/aggro or whatever if you are spamming Swipe and Maul like a mad woman.

Also, if the dps are pulling aggro off you IT'S THEIR FAULT, NOT YOURS.

Just in case I wasn't clear: IT'S THEIR FAULT, NOT YOURS.

And by the way: IT'S THEIR FAULT, NOT YOURS.

Do not let them convince you otherwise. Tell them to hide their damage meter and watch their threat meter instead.

And why is the DK that was with you not Death Gripping the casters already? Teach him not to suck or find a better DK to run with. Stupid damage meters...

Definatley second Oiysters position on threat. Tanks and Healers have a hard enough job without worrying about managing other players threat.

DPS have two jobs, output damage, manage their own threat...its just not that tough.

I am blessed with a great guild chemistry where we aren't elist enough to ostracize a person for their DPS, but we are progressive enough that everyone knows thier role and how to perform it well. (IMHO)

While I don't "tab" target on trash, I do typically jump focus mobs once the main target hits ~20%-25% health and get started on the next one.

If its guildies you are having some trouble with, back in the kara days, we had our DPS who struggled to manage threat simply insert a simple macro on their favorite spam:

/target Solarflash
/Assist
/Cast favorite spam

y macro knowledge is slipping these days, so that may not be verbatum what you need, but you get the idea.

Also, if the dps are pulling aggro off you IT'S THEIR FAULT, NOT YOURS.

Just in case I wasn't clear: IT'S THEIR FAULT, NOT YOURS.

And by the way: IT'S THEIR FAULT, NOT YOURS.

Do not let them convince you otherwise. Tell them to hide their damage meter and watch their threat meter instead.

this is vital and thus worth repeating.....repeating...repeating

if they dont learn let them die.....often. then kick em.

given i am in such a small guild and it used to often me be tanking and my guildie priest healing we used to use /g to discuss useless dps that failed to listen and simply was trying to out dps the other dps - was quite fun having a convo in /g about live or die this time for xyz dps ?

and it gave any others who were online the chance to enter in to fun to :)

Also, if the dps are pulling aggro off you IT'S THEIR FAULT, NOT YOURS.

Just in case I wasn't clear: IT'S THEIR FAULT, NOT YOURS.

And by the way: IT'S THEIR FAULT, NOT YOURS

Generally speaking, you are right....but not entirely. Saying it's always the fault of the dps is absolving crappy tanks of ALL blame. That is wrong.

Lately I've grouped with a few tanks who are inexperienced and undergeared. I've had to wait 5-10 seconds after the fight started, throw in a few shreds, stop attacking and hit cower, wait another 5 seconds, throw in a few more shreds, then hit Lifebloom and a healing potion because the mob is on me.

Don't tell me that's my fault.

y wife's experiences are much worse. She's grouped and raided with a DK guildie who has no aggro control. She has to wait 7 seconds before engaging the mob and then takes aggro off the tank within a few casts. On Patchwerk she had to soulshatter twice and stop casting to avoid getting aggro.

You do have a point, in that there are a lot of triggerhappy dps out there who are not managing their aggro. You must understand there are equally bad tanks.

You do have a point, in that there are a lot of triggerhappy dps out there who are not managing their aggro. You must understand there are equally bad tanks.Very true. I blame this on DKs and/or the LK's AoE tanking paradigm.

I know lots of folks like to just AoE down a pack of mobs, but I'll take a tank that marks (at least) skull and X any day over one that doesn't think it is necessary. As if they mark them, they tend to know that they have to hold agro on them. Those that don't (mostly DKs and Pally) are the ones that cause the most issues.

I hot key Skull, X, Square and Moon to F1-F4, so it takes just a second for me to mark any one mob. And for those boss fights in which adds are spawned, having skull/x hot-key'd is really nice.

Fair point Grim. I was making a generalization and there are always exceptions. I have had similar experiences to what you described, but for me they have been rare in frequency compared to how often dps will open up on a pull before the mobs even get to me.

tlbj, I have all the raid marks hotkeyed 1-8 on my keyboard. I stopped using more than the skull on trash pulls because up until 3.0.8 the only non-aoe dps classes were Rogues, Cat Druids and Enhancement Shamen and everything just got aoe'd anyway. I don't mark anything beyond the skull and I still hold aggro on everything as long as the skull gets focused for one or two combat rounds.

I also gem and enchant my gear for maximum threat generation and damage, which when combined with the Swipe threat buff makes it very easy to hold threat on aoe pulls.

My guild's DPS sucks (for the most part*) and very few, if any, have caught on to the new "AoE everything" mentality. So, I mark skull and X. That said, I still get a pet class or two that insists on sending in their pet with growl (or whatever it is called for Warlocks) on the 3rd mob. I think they think they are helping, when really they are not. Espeically since I seem to so rage starved in the first few moments of a trash pull (I think the 3.0.8 armor boost is to blame).

FWIW, what is the growl equivalent for warlock pets? I have this one warlock whose Fel-thingy always pull agro off me at the beginning of every pull (often because they charge in first).

* I'm not kidding. If our tanks and healers weren't so good, there is no way we'd finish a 5-man. In our last 10-man OS no drakes, it took us 8.5 min only to wipe on the final boss. We got him on our 3rd try after 7min. The hunter never even used Steady Shot. I (tanking Sarthion) was number one in total damage followed my our off-tank (on the adds). Frankly, I'm surprised we haven't kill a healer or two from all the stress lack of dps causes to them....

My guild's DPS sucks (for the most part*) and very few, if any, have caught on to the new "AoE everything" mentality. So, I mark skull and X. That said, I still get a pet class or two that insists on sending in their pet with growl (or whatever it is called for Warlocks) on the 3rd mob. I think they think they are helping, when really they are not. Espeically since I seem to so rage starved in the first few minutes (I think the 3.0.8 armor boost is to blame).

FWIW, what is the growl equivalent for warlock pets? I have this one warlock whose Fel-thingy always pull agro off me at the beginning of every pull (often because they charge in first).

* I'm not kidding. If our tanks and healers weren't so good, there is no way we'd finish a 5-man. In our last 10-man OS no drakes, it took us 8.5 min only to wipe on the final boss. We got him on our 3rd try after 7min. The hunter never even used Steady Shot. I (tanking Sarthion) was number one in total damage followed my our off-tank (on the adds).
The Voidwalker taunt is called Torment. Voidwalkers seriously have no place in a raid. (Yes Grim, there are exceptions!:) )

Steady Shot is a Hunter's #1 dps move, bar none. I think before 3.0.8 consensus was the the best thing a Hunter could do was SS and manage his pet, because anything else he could do was either less efficient, less productive, or both.

Usually dps'ers just make me mad making bad decisions in order to max the meters; your dps makes me want to weep.

As a rule of thumb...I will not taunt off a DPS. I will have the loose mob targeted and my finger on the taunt key, but I won't push it until said DPS is taking a dirt nap! You have to be sure to taunt as soon as the DPS goes down though to save a healer.

Its amazing how much you accelerate the learning curve of a DPSer when their stupid decisions come at a price of ~5g or so. Typically the type of player that whale's away with little regard for Omen, will be the same person who is whinning about a 50g repair bill at the end of the night. Hit them where it hurts!
(And the best part, it crushes their DPS meter to be dead for half the fight)

The Voidwalker taunt is called Torment. Voidwalkers seriously have no place in a raid. (Yes Grim, there are exceptions!:) )It is not the voidwalker, they use that big Felhunter(?). The guy that carries a huge sword or is it 2 huge swords. Does he have a growl like ability? His "charge" thing seems to cause a bunch of threat as well.

Maybe not Grimm., but its about 90% DPS fault and 10% tank fault ;)

yeah gotta love high repair bills for dps who then moan atthe number of times they died :)

It is not the voidwalker, they use that big Felhunter(?). The guy that carries a huge sword or is it 2 huge swords. Does he have a growl like ability? His "charge" thing seems to cause a bunch of threat as well.

Well, there's a felhunter, and then there's this other Warlock pet that looks like a felhunter. I think it's a new pet, but im not sure. I saw one for the first time last night when we were trying to take down Sarth +1 on OS25... I know they're fully buffable, and get to ~50K health when raid buffed... Sick!

...too bad he didn't help the outcome of the fight :(... We gave it 3 tries, and then doubled back, downed the +1, and then one-shot the final boss...

It is not the voidwalker, they use that big Felhunter(?). The guy that carries a huge sword or is it 2 huge swords. Does he have a growl like ability? His "charge" thing seems to cause a bunch of threat as well.
Anguish is the Felguard taunt, and Intercept is the charge. I'm weeping for you as I type this. Good luck to you.

For your dps::iamwithst

Hopefully they are somewhat more competent irl.

Grim, I know that sometimes it's the tank's fault too. I'll admit that. If a pull goes badly and it's my fault, I admit it and apologize and just do it right the next time.

I've had more than my fair share of "OMG My bad! I'm so sorry!" moments.

I'm trying to devise ways of working things out with my DPS in PuG in such a way that I'm not /facepalm-ing all night long! hehe

FINALLY - Des is prowling up on level 80. I have less than one little bubble left to go. I worked my little paws off this weekend grinding out the last few levels.

I will hit 80 tonight when I log in. I have a handful of quests that are complete, but that I just didn't have time to turn in last night.

So, I'm looking at a pure bear build, but I'm being pushed in about 30 different directions from friends about spec. (I'm specc'd ALL wrong lol, so when I hit 80 I'm going to respec).

I'm not sure which direction to go. In theory, there are so many builds that could be incredibly effective. But, as I found out last night, I'm going to end up being on of the heroic tanks for whenever the guild wants to hit a heroic. I'm happy with that, but I really need advice here.

I'm looking for the list of crafted gear or drops to get at 80 so I can start gearing up fairly quickly to be ready for it all.

I have bags LOADED with gear right now, as I've not taken the time to sell stuff with the push to just get the grind over with. Are there end game stats I should be aiming for for armor, HP, dodge, Stam, etc etc?

I've been doing some research but there are so many different forums and web sites devoted to, well, confusing a fairly "new" druid about tanking...I just don't know where to start.

:alc: <== I'll be the one on the right tonight when the grind finally ends...hehe!

This (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGscrzceRIcuVobA0z) built (HAI S3rge) is best for heroic tanking. It gives you all the mitigation talents plus Improved Mark of the Wild for when there's not another druid in the group. This build also assumes you have Glyph of Mangle, Glyph of Maul, and Glyph of Growl for major glyphs, and Glyph of Thorns for one of your minor glyphs.

As for stats, I say stack agility in every possible way for maximum mitigation, avoidance, threat and damage. Solar and S3rge have a slightly different take on things. Check out this (http://thedruidsgrove.org/wow/forums/showthread.php?t=13178) thread for a detailed but good-natured debate on the subject.

Congrats on 80!

That is really nice build. Don't think I've seen that variation on a bear build before. I like it. For a "pure bear" build I've see folks pickup 5/5 FA (for the improved AP debuff) at the expensive of KoTJ (a cat talent with little bear benefit) and PT (nice for PvE, but really a PvP talent).

And I agree with Oiyster about Agi, given the upcoming 3.1 changes (where a crit == 25% DR), AGI stacking is a better option than STA stacking. And for heroic 5-mans you'll have all the sta you need from gear. So, there is no need to gem for it.

Thanks tlbj. I like KotJ for a "starter" 80 build because the extra initial threat bump can help a low-geared tank get a needed threat lead on a pull, and can help plug the hole left by only having 3/5 Furor. PT is good because when a low-geared tank is stunned and cannot avoid attacks the extra damage they take can be painful. I think there is more utility in that build over picking up FA.

Plus a little cat dps boost for farming from KotJ rarely goes unappreciated, and PT helps with the ganking that occurs on a PvP server (either giving or receiving).

I so rarely enter a fight with Enrage active that I see little use in KotJ in bear form. Either I have leftover rage from the previous pull (I often just do white damage on the last mob once their health reaches 20-30%) or I wait for enrage to finish before I start the fight (especially boss fights). It is a requirement for Kitty. Which is why I take it as I'm often an OT or even just melee DPS.

I play on a PvE server. Though I can see the benefit of PT on a PvP server.

i'll take a look at those buids later as firewall stops me seeing em now.

but i agree i would not use Kotj for a bear build.

as for some crafted gear Des - its probably been mentioned in other threads but :

Trollwoven belt and spaulders
Polar Set - 3 items ? major stamina but little if any avoidance/mitigation
Titanium Earthguard ring
Titanium Earthguard Chain
Ring of Earthen Might
Durable Nerubhide Cloak
Jormscale Footpads - i found this worth crafting and not that bad mats.


If you're really stuck in slots then some of the Eviserator crafted items are a good start til better drops in 5 mans.

A couple of AH items i looked out for and purchased :

Chain Gang Leg Guards
Drake's Chamipon Bracers

There is a quest reward 2H staff which has good stats for a blue til you can get something 'proper' - i cant for the life of me remember its name - although something like Sorrowful Chieftain rings a bell ? no doubt someone else will put me straight....

Well, I understand why you'd choose that build Oiy, and I'll give that one a try. My issue with OoC is that I, personally, rarely remember to cast the buff. It ends up being intensely frustrating.

With the build you posted, does your Kitty DPS suffer quite a bit? In raids at 70, I was mostly OT, but asked to switch back and forth. The BONUS to the upcoming changes in bear is that I shouldn't have to change gear much in the midst of a raid in order to switch to kitty.

In bear, unbuffed with my best quest gear, I sit around 17k HP and 21+k armor. My dodge is INSANELY low (~26%), which is incredibly frustrating. It's steadily gone down since I started questing. But, I'll take a look at that gear list and hopefully start picking it up.

I'm gold starved currently, so it'll take me awhile to put together the gear I need for beginning heroics.

I'll respec tonight to that build. I'll check the AH for those items and hopefully start gearing up for my first heroic soon. I have my Staff of the Sorrowful Chieftain, and also a Hungering Greatstaff that grants a white 616 armor. It doesn't offer any agi or stam, so it's been just sitting in my bags.

Ultimately, I assume I would want ~40% dodge. What do the other caps look like? 35k HP? 35k Armor? I haven't gotten around to seeking out the end game stats and armor/hit/etc caps.

What do you guys think about this build for pure bear?

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGscrzceRIcdho0E0u

I would only use the build I posted as a new 80, for the reasons stated. As your gear improves and you are raiding more and doing 5 mans less, ferals are lucky and have many choices based on your raid makeup and personal playstyle. KotJ is a giant bump for kitty dps, so you will not be sorry to have it Des.

I would not take both Intensity and Furor. If you go 5/5 into Furor you have no need of Intensity OR KotJ for a pure build. OOC is automatic now! So no need to cast it. Once you spec into it it's active all the time.

Imp Mangle isn't very useful in a bear build, especially with the Mangle glyph. Never never never skip Rend and Tear. That talent is so good for both bear and cat it is a must have.

This (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0ZxGGscrzceRIczAo0E0z) is the purest bear build. No extra utility, no help for kitty dps. If you know you're going to have Imp MotW and your kitty dps is unimportant and you have a good tanking weapon, this is the way to go.

Ultimately, I assume I would want ~40% dodge. What do the other caps look like? 35k HP? 35k Armor? I haven't gotten around to seeking out the end game stats and armor/hit/etc caps.If you just want to tank heroics, you don't need those big numbers. Self-buffed (marks) in bear I have 32K health, 33K armor(I think) and maybe 36% dodge and 30% crit (important once 3.1 is released). And I have no problems tanking any heroic. And I have tanked 10-man vault and OS without issues as well. I haven't stepped foot in naxx yet, but from what I've read I should be fine in all but a couple encounters as a main tank.

For the easier heroics (hUK, hNexus) you can get by with far less. If most of your items are iLevel 150+ you should be fine. ilvl 187 are for lvl 80 group quest "blues" and heroic blue drops. Purple crafted items and purple heroic drops are ilvl 200.


FWIW, 40% dodge is really tough to get now with DR on dodge. I sort of think blizzard has made 40% a soft cap of sorts.

I haven't stepped foot in naxx yet, but from what I've read I should be fine in all but a couple encounters as a main tank.

With those kind of numbers you will be more than fine.

In bear form I've got something like 30k health and 32k armor with MotW. I'm using a pure kitty dps build. Last night in the middle of our first heroic Patchwerk fight I got told, "Grim go bear." I'm in dps gear and have zero tanking talents. I tanked until the mob was at 1% before I died. (Fortunately we got him down and I got a new belt.)

The build I posted just a little bit ago was more of an observation on another tank. That was his build suggestion, but I prefer the build you posted Oi, so far as maintaining some amount of kitty DPS for dailies and being able to switch to kitty if asked to in a raid.

I found a list of pre-heroic tanking gear to get on BBB's site. Easy enough to get...if I had the gold to do so. I still haven't unlocked epic flight and currently am rather gold starved atm. I'm going to do some dailies and farming for a little bit before I decide if I'd rather have the gear or the flight form. Epic flight though would make farming faster, and would therefore make the gold come in faster for the gear...hmm...decisions decisions...

Ironically, although blizzard insists that all encounters are possible with all tanks...etc...

I have yet to see a H-Naxx team drop Patchy without a Feral Soaker.

I am sure it is possible, but man its a burden on the healers to try and deal with that kind of spikey damage without a fluffy bear pillow taking the beating! :)

The build I posted just a little bit ago was more of an observation on another tank. That was his build suggestion, but I prefer the build you posted Oi, so far as maintaining some amount of kitty DPS for dailies and being able to switch to kitty if asked to in a raid.

The build he posted is fine, but if you're looking to do some kitty dps the first thing you want to do is drop 3/3 Primal Tenacity and get 3/3 King of the Jungle. For raiding in kitty form you want 2/2 Shredding Attacks, as shredding is far more effective than manglespam. Drop improved Mangle to 1/3.

currently self-buffed i'm sitting at 29.7k HP, 30.7k armour, 34.5% dodge and 30.4% dodge. 3735 AP and my hit is my big problem - only 90.

currently self-buffed i'm sitting at 29.7k HP, 30.7k armour, 34.5% dodge and 30.4% dodge. 3735 AP and my hit is my big problem - only 90.That is way more than enough to tank any heroic. I assume the last number is crit not dodge.

yeah ooops.

30.39% crit.

Guys, I think I'm confused or frustrated or a healthy combination of both.

Last night in OS, Sarth, no drakes...I kept losing threat to the raid-guild OT we picked up. Despite my many pleas to have him become the MT, my guildies insisted I MT to learn the fights. When we were on Sarth, it wasn't a huge issue. The geared OT was chasing adds, I was slapping around Sartharion, and life was good.

But on the mini-boss fights and trash pulls, I'd lose threat almost instantly to the other druid. I tried to inspect his gear, and intend to take a look on the armory to find out what his stats look like, but I'm questioning my threat generating rotation and a lot of other things right now.

First, if a group assigns a MT, should the OT just pass the MT's threat willy-nilly, regardless of assignment?

As I understand it, the OT's job is to be #2 on the threat meter, so if the MT dies he's right there and there's very little "panic taunting" to get the mob/boss onto the OT. If the OT has surpassed my threat, I find myself standing there, stupidly rage starved with barely enough to even do Auto-attack. It was very frustrating and confusing.

If I'm a druid OT, how do I generate enough rage to be #2 on the threat list if I'm not even getting hit?

Is this just a case of his gear being far superior to mine, with more AP and thus more threat? Should he have hugged the 10% line and not surpassed MT threat?

y guild is now very well geared, while I, sadly, am not that well geared. I don't know what to do to keep threat on me and not keep losing it to the Shammies or mages, or whatever else is in group.

Sometimes, to generate threat, I cast HoT's on myself, as many as I can, before running into the fight. I keep thorns up. I enrage, start with a swipe, throw in a lacerate, if I have enough rage, then I maul and spam swipe. I throw Maul in wherever I have enough rage to do so, and I try to remember to keep FFF and Demo Roar up on whatever I'm fighting. I throw in Lacerate and try to keep that up, at least stacked a few times so that Maul does that little bit more damage.

I don't even know what my rotation was last night as I was failing as MT because I was spamming about everything I could think of to try and keep aggro and not lose it, again, to the "OT".

I'm really confused. I don't think I can afford to drop any stam for more AP right now. I sit right at 30K HP unbuffed, ~30k Armor unbuffed. My dodge is low, ~32% (can't recall if I was buffed when I checked or not, but I don't think I was.)

Should I be trying to find strength/ap enchants or gems? What does Des need to do to keep up with her OP guildmates? lol

Did you have 3 tanks? Was this a 10-man or 25-man run?

I've only done the 10-man version and I'm always the MT for the drakes as well as the boss. The OT never touches my target, for the drake fights he does the portal stuff (whelps, disciple, etc.) on the boss fight he picks up the adds (fire elementals).

The only issue I've ever had with the OT is during one boss fight a week ago, he used his AoE taunt (similar to our Challenging Roar) when the adds got out of control (we never DPS them), which caused the boss to run over to him. Thankfully, the boss was a 3% and we just dealt with it after I taunted him off.

Frankly, I don't understand the scenario. Can you provide more details. This doesn't sound like a "number" problem, but a raid setup issue.

OT's job is to be second on the threat meter, and jump through portals (if that's what your group does) or tank the adds if you're not going through the portals for the second and third drakes (if you're going counter-clockwise).
OT should know his job. period.
Is everyone using Omen? If not, then apparently, they need to.
If you're not generating enough threat with your attacks, then you may want to look at your rotation. Don't Maul and Swipe generate more threat than Lacerate? I know that Swipe's threat got buffed last patch. What you may want to do generate a ton of threat at the start is to pop Berzerk and go Maul-crazy...

I just looked at your Armory, and my best suggestion is to continue to run heroics and gear up. Your chance to crit is only ~15% and you could use more expertise and hit rating. As well as getting rage off of damage you take, you get rage off of the damage you deal. If you're not critting, or you're getting a lot of glancing blows or dodged attackes, you're gonna be threat-gimped.
Your next heroic should be heroic Violet Hold for the Staff of Trickery or possibly heroic Utgarde Keep for the Enraged Feral Staff. Utgarde Keep will be easier by far, but with the Staff of Trickery, you should be hittting a LOT harder. Go ahead and enchant ALL your epics, while you're at it, since you probably won't be replacing those nearly as quickly as the blues.

Tlb, it was 10 man, 2 tanks.

I'm really frustrated with our heroic runs lately, as I'm constantly having to chase a shaman or a mage who's pulled aggro, despite my "IF IT IS ON YOU, YOU NEED TO RUN TO ME" spamming in party chat or vent.

I suppose I'll try berserking in the beginning of the fight. I think this is more of a gear issue then. I've never had an issue holding threat before, but lately it's been incredibly difficult. I'm not going into another raid until I'm geared better and can hold my threat better.

It's frustrating to try and find that balance though, of having enough HP, enough AP, enough Dodge, enough of well...everything...

I also have zero tanking trinkets. Very sad. We can't seem to get through the heroics that drop the tanking trinkets I'm looking for. In H: AN, we wipe on the first pull...always. Then it turns into people getting frustrated and the group disintegrates.

We've been trying to hit H: VH as much as we can for that staff, or even H: UK to get that staff. Anything would be better than what I've got, but things just refuse to drop. It's been frustrating. To be honest, I've been hiding out on alts lately more than running on my druid because of the sheer frustration of the situation.

I'm being told what stats need to be increased, but try as I might, it's just not happening. I'm afraid to drop the Stam gems for Agi or Hit/Crit/AP gems. I think I'm in over my head...

Do you have figures to aim for? Like X amount of crit/hit/ap/etc etc? I'm just failing at trying to get the balance right on my bear...

When tanking single targets (the drakes and the boss), your rotation should be...

anlge when it is up
Swipe 2-3 times
Lacerate
FFF <-- yes fff should be part of your rotation, do DR here after you have a good hold on the boss and he is in position
repeat

Use maul always. Maul isn't part of the rotation. It is on its own. It doesn't trigger a GCD. So, click it (or use your hotkey) after every one of your above attacks. That will make sure it always goes off on your next swing...

I would run that rotation thru once then use berserk followed by a mangle mash fest to put you well ahead of anyone else.

So, my exact key (mouse) clicks at the beginning of the fight would be...

Shift to bear
Enrage wait for 15+ rage
Run in
FFF to pull boss/drake
anlge
aul
<move boss into position to avoid the lava walls>
swipe
maul
swipe
maul
lacerate
maul
mangle
maul
fff (use DR every 2-3 times)
maul
start over at swipe

Once the first wall passes by, use berserk to jump way out in front on the threat meter by mashing mangle a billion times. Now your goal is to not fall asleep and avoid the lava walls.

Tlb, it was 10 man, 2 tanks.The OT should never touch your target in that scenario. Ever. He has better things he should be doing. Except at the beginning of the fight. And frankly, he should just do nothing (other than white attacks to build up rage) for the first few moments and then start off with simple attacks. He should never use taunt/growl or the AoE versions of the same.

I just wasn't sure if I'd missed something on "raid group setup or etiquette", so I appreciate that you've clarified that.

I was looking at his armory, and he's got AP buffs on almost all of his gear, 21k HP (not sure if he's in or out of bear form on logout- but I assume he's IN bear, as his armor is 50k)...but he only has 20% dodge according to the armory? That can't be right...

I'll give you his link, maybe someone can help me translate this?

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Durotan&n=Wredemoord

He's an amazing tank, for certain. I'm still very ... noobish. I've got so much to learn. I had wanted to maybe see if I could talk to him a bit, get some pointers, but he's in a hardcore raid guild. I always feel like a pest...

To be honest, I'm not really sure he was taunting. I think his AP was just that much higher that his swipe's threat was double or triple what I was putting out. I'm very frustrated...

I guess I have the perspective of your OT, in that I am technically the OT for our guild but regularily out threat the MT. If the mob doesn't need to be positioned a certain way, than its every tank for themselves. The tanks jobs are not to worry about out threating other tanks, but to worry about out threating the DPS as fast as possible.

So, I am of the opinion, the MT/OT lines are very fuzzy on trash. Now on a boss, it is absolutley the OT's job to manage his threat, especially early in the fight. However, if you are losing threat to a rage starved OT after about 20 secs of combat, you are probably doing somthing wrong.

For single target threat, and early beserk is gody for stomping up threat. Just pop berserk and spam maul and magle. Mixing in a lacerate will help too, but don't normally want to waste the GCD during beserk. In most cases another DPS has tagged the boss with a bleed shortly after pull anyway.

With lower dodge and lower crit atm, I would stay away from straight AP or strenth. Keep stacking that agility in everything you do. Crits are huge for your threat generation, infact I would bet thats why your OT was having trouble staying below you.

Heh, you had me confused. He is not in bear form in armory. The armory takes off all buffs and shapeshifting now. His armor is 5k unbuffed (not 50k) which is actually a bit low. I think my bear set sits around 8k unshifted. He does appear to be heavily weighted in the offensive categories though. 21k HP would put him around 35-40k HP shifted/buffed which is right about where you want to be for Naxx.

Also, OT taunting isn't uncommon in your "hardcore" guilds. Its a practise that takes very good coordination in the tanks but also boosts the DPS potential for your OTs. So I would not be surprised if he was taunting off you, but if that is somthing they practice in his guild, I would hope he knows that he needs to let you know he is going to do it.

What's your unbuffed health in Dire Bear Form?

y best guess(disclaimer: I've been feral dps for almost all of WotLK) is that if you're above 24,000 you could definitely come off of some stam gems and go for agility. Remember that agility will give you damage mitigation and avoidance.

do NOT give up des! you're a smart girl... heck, you found the best resource for druids of all time, didn't you? ;)

here's my best advice:

1. Get ALL your epics enchanted, maybe even some of your better blues (like your chain-gang leggings) That will give you the extra stam that you're afraid to lose.
2. Continue to run hVH or hUK. The loot gods can tease you for only so long!
3. Run your Sons of Hodir dailies and get exalted with them for the Shoulder Inscriptions. The dodge on them is NO joke!
4. Do a little research and make a list of items that you want from heroics and rep rewards and then run those heroics every day that you play and you're not raiding. Worst case scenario there is that you become exalted with all the factions that you need and are able to buy whatever you want from those factions.
5. Continue to raid! If you can succesfully tank in, pardon sounding brash, gimped gear... well, when the time comes and you're properly geared for it, tanking Naxx25, Malygos, and Ulduar when it comes out should be a LOT easier for you. OS25 and Vault25 should be the first two 25-mans that your guild should start running. They're ezmode once you're geared for it, and without a doubt, the quickest raids to farm 6 Emblems of Valor every week, until you guys get into Naxx25.

and remeber: it's a GAME! it's SUPPOSED to be fun!

That's just it...it IS a game, and is SUPPOSED to be fun. There's things lately that have transformed it from a game into a stress-fest for this little bear. That's more something for the Private Message, as I'm not sure I want it broadcast over the internet...

Unbuffed health in Dire Bear is ~30k. Buffed I can maybe get to 32k-ish, depending on group size/makeup. (And Solar, my apologies, lol. I'm a bit frazzled this morning, late night last night tanking things I "can't" tank yet...)

Should I go for agi/dodge/crit enchants now then? The whole gear thing is a bit overwhelming, if I'm being totally honest with you all.

I know what my goals for now are for Dodge/HP. I'm not even sure where my AP or Crit should be, or how to get it. I've always thought that was more "kitty" oriented, and I've just been concerned with getting to 30k HP so I can start looking for dodge. Grr, I'm so confused!

And the other druid is from a really awesome raid-guild and was tanking beautifully. I didn't mind that at all. I just don't like being in a position where I feel like I'm contributing nothing to the run. That's where 90% of the frustration came from. I managed to keep Sarth on me, and dodge lava walls, but that's only because the other tank was busy chasing adds...which was SUCH a relief for me...I am absolutely the WORST at picking up the adds in a fight.

In Naxx- Anub...where the little spiders spawn on the web, I was OT and couldn't pick them up to save my life (or the healers' for that matter...) Any advice on add pickups?

If you have 30K in bear, there is no reason to gem/enchant for +sta anymore (unless there isn't a +agi enchant for that slot). You'll pick up more from gear upgrades.

Picking up adds can be a bit hard depending on the scenario. If it is just one add, I tab target. If there is a boss and once in a while there is an add (think first boss in OK), I make the boss my /focus target and then tab target the add. Once the add is dead, i click on my focus frame to reacquire the boss.

Oh I'm talking more on situations where 5+ adds spawn and you're dancing with the boss...the adds almost always instantly decide to eat my healer, which leaves me turning my butt to the boss and swiping like a wild-woman at the adds to pick them up...especially if they've attached themselves to a DPS who then runs around the room like a headless chicken.../sigh

No amount of "If something aggros on you, run TO ME" seems to change this.

If it's one add, normally I can tab-taunt or tab-smack and pick them up and bring them where I can keep them under control. If it's 2 or more, I fail...epic fail...

I'll start searching for +Agi, Hit, RAWR then now. Main focus will be to get my Dodge/Hit up. Though, there's not much gear out there for a tank that I can get my little paws on that has +Hit or +Expertise...

If it help Dest, I am the worst ad tank in guild too. I can MT or handle 3-4 without a problem...more than that...I may as well just sit down! Druids are extremely weak at picking up ads mid fight, because everything must be in our cone of attack to do anything. Add lag and instant healing/DPS threat on mobs along with non-instant AoE ability (swipe) and you have a hopeless situation for a bear.

For those spiders, we have a mage camp under the boss and hit frost nova as soon as ads are up, then the warrior take care of them (because I failed at it). Now I can hide behind the fact that I take hits better than our warrior, but secretly, the original reason was because I stink at it.

Really, your DPS sounds geared enough that you may want to have all your DPS keep passive AoE up on the spawn sight so the aggro goes to them and not the healers. They don't hit hard enought to be a concern for non-clothy DPS (read: Ret pally/DK/Shammy works well). DPS and OT then handles them at thier convenience and the healers are not getting interupted casts.

That sounds like a good strategy...I'll have to keep that in mind. I think I just get a little overwhelmed in raids, being undergeared and really unfamiliar with raiding. At 70, I only raided once before I went on took off and "hibernated" for a few months.

If I have a chance to whack around a few mobs, or a boss spawns adds right in my direct damage area, we're golden. It's when the adds spawn in other locations or instantly take off running that I have a huge issue.

There's just too much going on lately. I really have been avoiding logging in on my druid, and have been logging in on my alts to try and get back to playing to relax and enjoy myself.

Welcome back Dest....you went quiet again!

Sorry to hear you're getting frustrated. Despite your frustrations - how do your fellow guildies feel about your performance and your gear ?

ie are they supportive - i would hope they are and if so then perhaps you need to be a little easier on yourself.....

if you're less experienced at current raids than the people you group with, and your gear is not yet at their level then give yourself a break, step back, take a deep breath and relaxxxxxx.

and ofc keep coming in here for some good chat and good advice - and to let off some steam :)

My guild is amazing! We're just a "friendly" guild, ie, we only raid casually when our members are willing and can meet for a raid, otherwise we PuG.

They are incredibly supportive, willing to run whatever instances I need to get gear, etc. They're constantly /cheering me...and I've cozied up to one of our healers. They're not really thrilled that my gear is lacking, but like I said, are very willing to drag me through whatever I need to run to get what I need.

I feel terrible, and I'm not hiding on unknown alts to avoid my guild. But the reason I AM hiding is the part I'd rather reserve for a PM.

Khel, sorry I've been quiet. I had gotten sick and wasn't doing much of anything aside from trying to catch up on things here at work. Well, that and I felt a little pressured to try and learn/memorize all of the fights in heroics/raids...but then I realized I'm happier being a bumbling dummy of a bear, so I just let them tell me about fights on vent before we engage and we go from there. /giggle

The other reason I've been sort of quiet, both here and in guild, is because my mother (yes, my real life mom plays WoW zomg!), has a feral druid of her own. She seemed to want to experience tanking, so I've been leveling a holy paladin to heal for her. Yes, shoot me now. Leveling as holy, even at low levels is miserable! But I <3 my pally almost as much as I <3 my druid.

y mom's adorable with her little toons. She wants to "be like Des" so bad...so, I'm packing up my laptop (I know, ugh LAG) and going to her house tomorrow night assuming everything works out right, and I'm going to sit next to her and guide her through tanking Deadmines. If she likes tanking, she'll get some experience early on, rather than ending up like me and not ever tank anything on level until Outlands really. I had to learn a lot and FAST once I got out there.

aybe if she learns early she'll be an even better (and calmer) tank than I am? Hopefully she enjoys the experience and doesn't panic too much. Maybe I should take some Valium with me for her?

I <3 my pally almost as much as I <3 my druid.

Blasphemy!

On a serious note, it's cool that you're teaching your mom to tank... It can be an eye opening experience, when teaching someone else something, you discover how much you learn by teaching... GL

I just <3 my pally because he's adorable and I have fun emote/chat macros that I'm working on for him. I SUPPOSE I should find some actual "useful" macros, but I'm really more about having fun with him for now than anything else.

Des will always hold the biggest piece of my heart. She was my first and my ONLY for 40+ levels.

I've noticed that I learn more when I teach. With her druid being level 21, I'll get to go back and revisit the beginning of druiding myself, and maybe pick up a few pieces I would have otherwise learned early on.

We were talking last night about it. She's so nervous, the poor thing! I don't think any amount of reassurance will calm her nerves going in.

I feel terrible, and I'm not hiding on unknown alts to avoid my guild. But the reason I AM hiding is the part I'd rather reserve for a PM.

Khel, sorry I've been quiet. I had gotten sick and wasn't doing much of anything aside from trying to catch up on things here at work.

sounds ominous Des :( not sure i understand why you're hiding if its not from guild. but i hope you get it sorted somehow :)

soz you been ill.

nice ! i cant even get the wife into the game - let alone my parents who cant even use and do not have a pc ! lol. different generation !

nice ! i cant even get the wife into the game - let alone my parents who cant even use and do not have a pc ! lol. different generation !

Lol, I cannot get my wife to play either. Been trying for 2+ years now. She just won't give it a shot!

Admitably I don't think she would ever appreciate the game like I do (raids/gear), but I think she would love the social/economic sectors of the game.

Solar & Khel,
I used to be the same way. My husband used to catch aggro when he'd play for hours if I wanted to be doing something else. But he ended up giving me a subscription as a mother's day present, and I would have felt bad if I didn't give it a shot. So I did, and the rest is history.

The tanking lesson went well, honestly! I was impressed with our little group as a whole. A mage, Ret Pally, Hunter, my Holy Pally and mom's druid. She did really well. I was proud :) We also started getting her the "Of the Fang" leather set in WC. Very very exciting!

Other than that, I finally got the Staff of Trickery to drop in H: VH, which is an upgrade from what I've got now. But, I got rolled against on it by a hunter, who won it by a small margin. /sigh. It was an upgrade for him though, so I figured I'd just try again. Can't go wrong with more badges, right? We tried again last night, but we got the voidwalker boss and we wiped miserably on him within maybe 30 seconds.

I did grab some upgrades. I spent all of my emblems on the Valor Medal of the First War and the Chained Military Gorget, which were serious upgrades to the blues I had (and the non-tanking trinket I had previously). I also got the Gilt-Edged Leather Gauntlets to drop, but I think my Gloves of the Preserved History from the H: CoS quest are better, at least for now. So at least I made some progress this weekend...

I just can't seem to find that delicate balance of the tanking druid with my gear. I'm working on that though. I think now though, I'll save up badges because it seems like the next patch is gonna hurt us tanks a little...

BTW- Husdruid got The Reins of the Grand Black War Mammoth (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43959) on Saturday night. I swear, the man's got a lucky horse shoe up his butt! He's now got that AND the Horseman's mount.../jealous!

hehe yeah i still catch aggro Des !

lol a set now is there in WC ! glad she enjoyed it in there with you all, i used to dislike WC - always got lost !

wow, is that Staff a hunter weapon then ? from the way its been described etc i thought it was an out and out druid weapon ?

yeah you cant go wrong with more emblems. i could do with adding the the 2 i've got so far in the game ! :rolling:

next patch looks very bad atm.

What's that mammoth then ? i guess its some low drop chance from somewhere but i have no idea :bonk:

wow, is that Staff a hunter weapon then ? from the way its been described etc i thought it was an out and out druid weapon ?

I know a few hunters who use it. I ran H VH daily for about a week to get a hunter friend the staff. It was a huge upgrade for him.

It dropped in 25 man Vault. He was there...I was on my pally healing WC.../sigh! The mammoth is similar to the one you can buy that allows you to pick up 2 passengers (the one with the two vendors on it). Only, it has no vendors. Otherwise it's the same model. These huge mounts are irritating to me. I'll stick with my tigers. Maybe I'll get a group together and try for the Zulian Tiger...mmm...it's a very sexy mount!

If it's an upgrade for him, then good. And I'm not a tank in his guild, so there's no reason he'd pass on it to allow a tank to take an upgrade. I'm cool with that.

@ Grim, I don't hold issue with it. It's more that I was dumb and if that was the ONLY drop I was after in there, I should have taken some clothies with me, or set up a group where I'd not have competition for drops. I will run it again...as soon as I can get a guarantee that the Voidwalker-ish Boss won't be one I have to face again. I think he wiped us within about 15 seconds because he shifted our healer, and not one of our DPS...lol.

As for next patch, it's just something we'll have to ride out until they return us to normal again. It's the same thing that happened last time. They nerfed us really hard, found out it wasn't working, then moved us back to similar to what we had previously. Maybe not exactly the same, but close...

Here's to hoping it doesn't hurt too bad. I hear Resto Druids are facing a nerfing of their own, regarding the cost of LifeBloom. Rumor has it that it may cost nearly 10% of their base mana to cast the LifebloomX3. The guild's "Bear Handler" aka the resto tree that I'm almost ALWAYS grouped with is pretty frustrated with that and the rumored nerf to spirit mana regen. We've been joking around about putting our druids into "farming mode" to earn gold for our alts. We shall see...

whey hey Des - WC ftw ! ;)

ahha similar to the 20k gold one then. i've not let myself hit the button on that one yet ! i think my next one is the mount from exalted with Sons and then the one from Wyrm rep.

i had not realised a really nice druid weapon with great FAP etc was also now a viable hunter weapon, i guess i'm just really out of date not doing any form of raiding etc

i think the patch will hurt the viability of druid tanks in larger guilds - and it will especially hurt the perception of them....at least for a while....

yeah even i might get to the hibernation stage as i mentioned earlier where i decide to level a DK rather than even look to try to do 5 mans etc on my druid.

I'm not sure whether our reputation as tanks will be so badly injured by it. I didn't notice a change during the last nerf in how many requests I'd gotten to tank this, that, or the other thing. Of course, I haven't had the opportunity to tank anything aside from Blood Furnace and Underbog recently...thanks to some beautiful drama. Part of me thinks I should have stayed retired.../sigh.

aybe instead of changing/nerfing classes, they should just make the encounters a little more demanding? I'm not sure what to make of it anymore.

To you other bears out there: Do you think this next patch will really be devastating or might it be more of an even trade off? I refuse to read the patch notes because I think with everything that's going on, I'd just get PO'd and call it quits again. I started reading some early on and just...grr. Hard for a noob to learn anything when everything I learn ends up obsolete a month or two later...

Will this patch cause us bears to be sidelined, do you think? Or will we still be just as viable as before, but with different mechanics/stats to get used to?

Will this patch cause us bears to be sidelined, do you think? Or will we still be just as viable as before, but with different mechanics/stats to get used to?No. We just won't so OP like we are today. And, really, who wants to be OP? Sort of takes the fun out of it.

I have several co-workers that all play WoW on a private server. They level for a while but if they get overwhelmed a bit they use their ".die" macro to kill everything. Or they can teleport to any NPC instantly. One of them had the nerve to complain that he had to go to a trainer after making himself lvl 50 (or whatever) to learn new skills. I laughed at him.

To you other bears out there: Do you think this next patch will really be devastating or might it be more of an even trade off?

I'm a kitty, not a bear, but I do tank occasionally.

I've watched warrior tanks bust their tails on boss encounters. For low end guilds, Maexxna for example seems to require two tanks, one to taunt off on enrage after the cooldowns fail. In bear form I have 45k hp raid buffed and can tank through it effortlessly, no taunting offtank required. I've had to switch to bear form on heroic Patchwerk -- with no tanking talents I should add -- and we got him down.

Bears will be fine.

Kitties, on the other hand, suffer from the YAMD problem (yet another melee dps). I'm loving the new kitty changes, but when you have to compete with ret pallies, fury warriors, rogues and the omnipresent death knights, kitties are just not wanted.

Kitties, on the other hand, suffer from the YAMD problem (yet another melee dps). I'm loving the new kitty changes, but when you have to compete with ret pallies, fury warriors, rogues and the omnipresent death knights, kitties are just not wanted.

I think this has changed since the last patch (+kitty swipe patch). We have two ferals that regularily top the DPS charts over DK's and Ret pallies. SV Hunters still pawn everyone by a handy margin, but that is being toned back. Kitties in T7+ can easily sustain 3.5k DPS. I have seen a few break 4k overall for a run.

Feral DPS is just more complicated than most of your other melees. With practice, they are actually superior to most melee DPS.

...Kitties in T7+ can easily sustain 3.5k DPS. I have seen a few break 4k overall for a run.

Feral DPS is just more complicated than most of your other melees. With practice, they are actually superior to most melee DPS.

Aggree with 4k+ overall. I do it all the time.

But i have to disaggree on the competition-part.
DKs eat me. Warris, Rogues are a little superior. Retri are on par. And shamans... whats a shaman? :p

Haven't tried patchwerk yet as a DD.
And on other bosses its more difficult for me cause i need to be behind the boss. The others dont.

Hopefully tomorrow i can go as a DD to patchwerk to test it out!

That's actually reassuring. Thank you guys.

I suppose I enjoy being OP a little, I won't deny that. As long as I'm still able to tank...

I don't enjoy druid-healing or DPS really. She's always been a tank. Either way. I'm just glad the next patch doesn't seem like it's going to leave her in a cave hibernating while the other tanking classes get to go out and play all the time..lol.

yea, on kitty dps, i found myself at the top of the damage meters on heroics while the rest of my guild was gearing up. Now that we're pwning Naxx25 and everyone else has geared up a bit, i'm getting bumped further down the charts to where im not even in the top 10 anymore. I'm sure my framerate in 25's has something to do with it, but jeez...

GC has said that cats are running a little behind, hence the new talent to let our dots crit... that's yummy right there. If the chance for out dots to crit is the same as our melee chance to crit, then that will be a fairly substantial boost. Raid buffed, I'm sitting at ~52% chance to crit. I have 3 T7.5 (still waiting for the helm) and i'm still looking for a staff to drop from Naxx25 that will bump up my AP by about 200 or 300... hear THIS kitteh rawr!

...Now that we're pwning Naxx25 and everyone else has geared up a bit, i'm getting bumped further down the charts to where im not even in the top 10 anymore. I'm sure my framerate in 25's has something to do with it, but jeez...
...

The problem is, druids scale not as good as the other classes with high end gear.

I'm back...again...

Let's say you're a bear, your talent tree says so.

If you pick up kitty gear and use a solid rotation, can you really compare to a kitty spec druid?

What gear would be worth looking into if I want to try and DPS rather than tank an instance/raid?

just go for items with AGI/HIT/EXP/AP on them.
Try to max. your +HIT and bring your EXP near 6.5%.
And use the 16 STR gems for sockets.

For nice damage u wanna max. your AP,
bring your crit above 40% and max. your HIT(7-8%)/EXP(6.5%).

And use the 16 STR gems for sockets.You might not want to gem str now as from what I'm reading we (kitty) will want to gem agi once 3.1 comes. It seems agi ~ str in 3.1 with a slight edge toward agi. But not much of an edge so if you gem str now it won't be much of an issue once 3.1 is released.

tlbj is right. AGI will be a little superior to STR.

Just stay with STR-gems u already have
and use AGI on new items.

Awesome! I'll start working on my alternative feral set then. Seems like I'm being asked to DPS in 25 mans more than tanking...unless I noob up the DPS... then they just "/sigh Can we just have Des tank so she doesn't get hit with the lava walls again?"

I'll start picking stuff up I think. It'll be nice to have that extra dimension end game. Thank you guys!

Do you have advice on rotation for kitty?

Do you have advice on rotation for kitty?

Sure. :biggrin:

To start:
1) 3-4 CP on the mob then Savage Roar
2) 5 CP Rip
3) Built 1 and 2 as fast as possible (use TigersFury or Berserk for that)

There are a few rulez for DPS.
1) Never ever let Savage Roar run out
2) Never let Rip run out
3) Keep Rake always on the mob
4) Keep Mangle-Debuff always on the mob
5) Shred between the above stuff
6) If Savage Roar and Rip are running and u are at 5 CP on the mob u can use FB if:
6.1) Savage Roar wont run out until u have 5 CP again
6.2) Rips remaining running time is longer 6 seconds

The core of DPS are the points 1-5.
Point 6 is for ubber DPSers for the extra little kick. :mage01:

Easy.. isn't it?? :wink:

DPS is so complicated! @_@

Tanking's sooooo much easier. I don't have the gear to make it worthwhile to even try and pretend I'm DPS right now. Everything I have SCREAMS feral tank...it's almost sad. I did get some nice DPS boots in Naxx though... The Boots of the Worshipper (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39196) dropped when we were there Friday. Husdruid is /drooling over them. But he's got my Staff of the Plaguebeast...so I guess we'll be calling it even for now, eh?

Oh, and on the off chance husdruid reads this post...BWAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I GOTS YOUR BOOTS!

calling it even for now, eh?

Oh, and on the off chance husdruid reads this post...BWAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I GOTS YOUR BOOTS!

Lol!!!:dance:

Also, those are very nice tanking boots! I know they lack the stam you are used to seeing, but 66 agility = ~1.5% dgd! Thats a sexy bear stat too!

I say boots > staff (assuming you have the Trickery or Blue one (enraged/entangled...somthing)?)

The armor on the staff is nice, but blizz took away our fun weapon multiplier, so its only "meh" now.

Hi Solar! Yes, I finally got my Enraged Feral Staff. I've had that for just over a week or so now. I nearly fainted when it dropped. The Staff of Trickery, well...that one's still not a part of my weapons rotation.

Being the only melee leather wearer in the group helped a lot- LOL.

So, now, it's back to trying to figure out how to get some better gear and get rid of these blues. The problem I find is that most of the epic drops seem to scream kitty- where I'd lose an insane amount of armor or stam to equip them. At this point, I just don't have a solid avoidance set that I'm comfortable with, nor do I have a stam heavy set that I'm completely happy with yet. I survive, but I'd rather be less of a strain on our healers- one way or the other.

The problem I find is that most of the epic drops seem to scream kitty- where I'd lose an insane amount of armor or stam to equip them.

Well, look carefully at the benefit of the "armor" on your bear items. Remember, all leather pieces no longer give you any additional armor (T7 kitty pieces have same armor as T7 Bear pieces)! So in essense there is really no difference in Kitty vs Bear gear in your "leather" slots. The only difference is going to be avoidance stats like dgd/def, eating up itemization makes them definate bear items, while agi/ap stacked items are both!

Tell those silly kitties, "Solar says, you should roll on their gear too!"

If your HP is +32k when buffed and shifted, its time to start focusing on Offensive abilities and avoidance (read: agility/hit). I know you said you struggle with threat sometimes, and these stats will help you in that area significantly.

I'm just having a bit of trouble finding gear to switch out where I'd get the offensive stats, versus Defensive stats. I don't raid much and honestly haven't seen a heroic in a week at least. There's been RL issues taking priority lately.

Raid buffed, depending on the group and what buffs we have available, I've hit close to 37k HP. Usually I hover comfortably around 35k. I'll start working on some Offense gear though soon.

See, for me, I'm not one that can look at the stats on gear and say "Oh, that'll increase my threat" or "That'd definitely increase my dodge by X%" I always have to "try gear on" and see what happens. I think it's the only way I can really understand gear.

I was also advised that for dual spec- if I want to go resto (which I've thought about doing) then I should start picking up healer gear. So, I looked at some caster pieces and...they all kind of look the same to me. Mind you, my only casters are level 10, level 8 and level 6...so...

Des - do you use an addon that shows all the stats a particular item of gear will give you ?

i use Ratings Buster i think its called.

shows all the +health +hit +crit etc etc that an item will give you. i find it very useful as i'm not in anyway a number cruncher or mathematics guru.

Khel, if I'm understanding you correctly...

Say an item has +54 Agi...this addon would translate that to dodge/armor or whatever else that particular item would provide?

If that's the case awesome! Cuz then I'd just have to learn what all of my caps are and start running toward them :D

Exactly Des.

all of an items stats are turned into figures to all you to know exaclty how much extra HP / Mana / Crit / Dodge etc you will gain by using that item.

Ooh that could be a really cool thing!

Does it show if you'll lose HP?

Say if you're already rockin' boots with +75 stam, and you find boots that have only +65 stam but oodles more Agi...does it say -150 HP, +1.76 Dodge?

yes iirc it does do that showing amounts in red rather than black, although i'm not sure i've seen it do red for all stats ?

hmmm, i'll have to check !

otherwise its easy enough to look at the stats for wot you are wearing and then look at the new one and see the differences i find in the main stats.

ie if there is a stam difference then i can work that one out in my head and dont worry so much about it.

its the +hit or crit or esp the AGI differences and what they equate to that i need to see in writing !

Agreed! Agi = greek to me sometimes. If I am not mistaken, it gives +dodge, +ap, +armor...or contributes to armor somehow...crit chance.... Ok so maybe it's not greek but it's very confusing and since I didn't major in math... O.o

I'll check the addon out as soon as I can (or have Husdruid look into it, since he's a lot more knowledgeable than I'll ever be lolz)