View Full Forums : Cat vs Moonkin Test ==> OOM


tlbj6142
04-04-2009, 11:04 PM
I've been thinking about switching to moonkin because we need more range DPS. I've been #1 or #2 (depending on fight, brez, de-curse, etc.) the past two weeks in naxx as a "pure cat" (no bear only talents). My cat gear is good (3T7), most of it is enchanted, hit capped, meta gem, etc. Only using the Rip Glyph. Though I've picked gear based on 3.1 weights, not 3.0.8.

Respec'd moonkin 55/0/16 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xG0uiIscdIVh0uZbxcub), used starfire, moonfire and IS glyphs. 6 empty gem slots, 0 meta, 0 enchants, some slot are sub-par (idol, 1 trinket, ring) gear. Int 894, Spirit 470, ICMP5 120, hit capped (with iff), crit 15.96, 326 haste, 1372 +sp.

iFF>IS>MF>Wrath 'till eclipse->SF thru eclipse and its cooldown->Repeat. Keeping IS and MF up at all times. IS was allowed to drop during eclipse, but not MF.

Only buff, iMotW for both tests.

Scenario...8 min fight on "boss" target dummy (in Thunder Bluff). 1min all boss, min 2-6 the first 15s of each min doing DPS to a lvl 70 dummy, min 7 all boss. I used the built-in timer to know when to switch targets. And to know when the event was over.

The fight scenario favored ranged DPS since I could stand in one spot and DPS both dummies. In cat form I had to jump up/down a small step to get to the lvl 70 dummy which cost me 3-4s each way. So, I made iFF a "requirement" for moonkin, even though in 3.1 it would only be used 1-2 times per fight.

Cat DPS: 2105, Total Damage: 1.02M
Moonkin DPS: 1250, Total Damage: 350K.

I was OOM at the 4:30min mark with Moonkin, even after Innervate and a mana pot. I think I only had 2? 3? Eclipse procs, which meas I was casting Wrath quite a bit. Had I made it at least 6 min I'd be fine with the results as I know I'll have BoW and/or a mana totem in a raid, not sure about a replenishment type buff??? But 4:30min seems a bit too short to me.

I'm OK with the moonkin DPS number as I know it will get better with a meta gem, more +sp gems, enchants, better gear, etc. What I don't like is the OOM factor!! What do I need to do? Do I drop something and pick up Dreamstate? Innervate Glyph rather than IS glyph? Both? More spirit gear (my spirit seems really low, but I really have no idea what a moonkin should have). Change my rotation?

I've been using wowhead's moonkin "weight scale" (http://www.wowhead.com/?items=4.2&filter=ub=11;wt=119:103:123:96:23:61:24;wtv=100:46 :46:43:26:15:8) in Pawn to identify pieces (that are going to be DE'd or vendor'd) that I might want in my moonkin kit. Spirit is the lowest weighted attribute.

FWIW, I do nearly 2.6-3K DPS in cat form raid 10-man buff'd (depending on the fight).

If it wasn't for the OOM issue, I'd stay moonkin, as it was far easier DPS than cat.

Thoughts?

tlbj6142
04-05-2009, 03:19 PM
I ran another test this morning. Moonkin only, single target (boss only) using iFF each time it was up, but changing my rotation to use...

iFF>IS>MF>SF 'till eclipse>Wrath during eclipse only>repeat

Refreshing MF and iFF as needed and IS as needed if outside of the eclipse proc.

Using Innervate at 30% and a mana pot later. I only made it 4:10m before going OOM. Weird. I would have thought that using SF more than W would have resulted in a larger mana pool. I copied my toon over to the PTR to do more testing since I need to respec for tonight's raid.

Tsumaní
04-05-2009, 08:01 PM
Your results aren't surprising to me at all.

Even in awesome gear, I see a huge difference in mana regen with full raid buffs, vs. solo. I frequently go oom in standard 5-man heroics, and NEVER go oom in raids. (have zero mana talents though... because of that fact - if you put a few pts into mana, you may do even better)

Bottom line, I wouldn't put too much weight on it until you've actually put some effort (aka gems/enchants) on your chicken gear, and gave it a day in court with full raid buffs/totems/etc...

tlbj6142
04-06-2009, 12:03 AM
I copied my toon to the PTR and ran a test with 3/3 Dreamstate instead of Intensity. Only made it to 3:30m. Intensity only on the PTR I barely made it to 4:00m. I will say that depending on gear 3/3 Intensity vs 3/3 Dreamstate can be a tough decision. For me, they were nearly equal with a slight edge to 3/3 Intensity.

I was shocked at how bad my paper doll ICMP5 was...raid buffs make make a huge difference. Not sure how enchants/gems would help all that much, though I guess I'd pick-up some more crit which would give me more mana back from some talent, I think.

Tsumani, I just looked at your amory, 30 ICMP5 and you do fine in raids?? Damn! What is your ICMP5 raid buffed? Where does it come from? Look it up the next time you raid. 10-man? 25-man?

I now have 85 emblems. So, I need to decide if I should pour those into lazer chicken or flesh out kitty a bit more. I have all I want for bear (even though I don't think I'll be tanking much more)....choices, choices...

Tsumaní
04-06-2009, 12:19 PM
I've often wondered that myself. But I don't ask questions. hahah. (jk) We're going to knock out 25 nax tonight, and I'll look up my raidbuffed ICMP5 for ya. Might also do a non-raid-buffed test on the dummies to see if my results are similar to yours. I would guess they would be (I might even go oom faster than you did, who knows).

Really, I think it all comes down to spirit and crit. Get more spirit, and crit more often, and your mana pool lasts longer. Raid buffs help with both of these. And I do have a hefty amount of spirit and I crit a lot. A whole lot. Awwww yeah >:D Things will change slightly in 3.1 though... If you check out Graylo's blog, he did a lot of number crunching regarding mana regen on a fairly recent post examining the proposed set bonuses and stats allocations on new items coming out in 3.1

http://graymatterwow.blogspot.com/2009/03/mana-regen-spirit-vs-crit.html

You'd like Graylo, TLBJ... He's your kind of numbercruncher. Now that I'm a nuke-chicken full time, Graylo is to me now, as you were to me back when I was feral and used this site as my primary source of tips and theorycrafting. :D

tlbj6142
04-06-2009, 02:16 PM
I've been readying Gray Matter's blog for some time. He has some good stuff.

Kheldar
04-07-2009, 03:08 AM
i'll check him out later but as a total non number cruncher i'll probably not understand a word !

Nellie
04-07-2009, 12:25 PM
I'm switching between hootkin and resto at the moment (we're insanely heavy on casters in raid and my sucky DPS compared to the hunter is more than compensated for by the 5% crit bonus + all the other nice buffs hootkins bring) and with a single replenish in the raid I'm frequently going OOM on boss fights.

I put a lot of that down to faily shabby gear in comparison to the tree and me being a relative noob when it comes to playing Balance/prioritising my gear but I feel your pain.

tlbj6142
04-07-2009, 01:09 PM
(we're insanely heavy on casters in raid)... is more than compensated for by the 5% crit bonus + all the other nice buffs hootkins bringWe have the opposite problem. Too many melee. Last night we did 10-man KT with 4 melee and one caster (got my T7 helm, woot!). Those ice block things were tough on the healers as we always had 2 get ice blocked at the same time because there isn't enough space around KT for 4 melee (so we stack in pairs).

I've decided to put a hold on my moonkin until dual-specs is released and even then make it my closet spec. I have one more item I really want for my cat. After that I'll put all my extra gold into enchants/upgrades into my boomkin gear.

Unfortunatley, from what I've seen kitty DPS gets a nice buff in 3.1 and boomkins barely see any change. Comparing specs, kitty appears to be quite a bit higher DPS than boomkin.

Solarflash
04-07-2009, 01:28 PM
Kitty is hands down higher DPS no doubt, but fights like KT are a perfect example of why Ranged>Melee in almost any encounter. Melee will hit harder but they are a much larger liability to the raid. They take much more splash damage and typically have more technical "movements" to execute (heigan dance).

I would reccomend one feral spec and one caster spec when 3.1 hits. You can tank in kitty spec, or kitty in tank spec, but both are still melee. Pick the one you do the most and save the other spec for a caster build.

I would go Boomkin > Resto because you can effectivley heal in boomkin, but its tough to DPS in Resto. Most times when you are changing to your "off spec" its because the raid doesn't require your main spec at that time. (3 tanks, boss encounter only needs 1) So you don't need to be able to compete with the "Fulltime" healers, nor are you expected to top the damage meters. You should have decent numbers but flexibility is probably more important. (from a raid perspective at least)

tlbj6142
04-07-2009, 04:25 PM
I would recommend one feral spec and one caster spec when 3.1 hits. You can tank in kitty spec, or kitty in tank spec, but both are still melee. Pick the one you do the most and save the other spec for a caster build.That's what I plan to do. Plus I can use my moonkin on easier fights as practice. So, when we do really need more range DPS (due to mechanics, buffs, etc.), I'll be somewhat ready.

Right now I'd love to find a way to do kitty with a touch of bear (I love tanking 5-mans for fun), but I don't see how without nerf'ing my cat DPS. It is too bad Primal Gore requires RnT. Otherwise, I'd drop RnT and FA and put those 10 points into bear talents and still keep 5/2 MS for the extra crit.

Kheldar
04-08-2009, 02:58 AM
i'm not sure anymore for dual specs.

with my limited time and small guild we do sometimes struggle for a healer. whereas the other 2 guildies both have healers but both hate healing and both have lvl 80 dk's. both prefer to bring dk's to 5 mans.

i'm really enjoying oomkin and was not enjoying tanking as much, nor do i think i will in 3.1 post nerfs.

so do i go resto / oomkin or oomkin / feral - with more a bias for the first time to kitty talents ? my feral build has always been bear > kitty

s3Rgio
04-08-2009, 05:49 AM
i wonder why ppl still use the word "oomkin". (OutOfManakin)
It really doesn't apply anymore.

Solarflash
04-08-2009, 07:30 AM
Right now I'd love to find a way to do kitty with a touch of bear (I love tanking 5-mans for fun), but I don't see how without nerf'ing my cat DPS. It is too bad Primal Gore requires RnT. Otherwise, I'd drop RnT and FA and put those 10 points into bear talents and still keep 5/2 MS for the extra crit.

Gear depending, I woudl think the only two talents you "NEED" to tank 5 man content is Thick Hide and SotF. There are a few others that would make life easier, but you could easily take an almost full kitty spec and make a 5-man tank out of it. (I have tanked H-VH boomkin spec:grin: ) I had a crazy OP healer though and was constently taunting! (starfall is a nice threat too though)

Kheldar
04-08-2009, 07:59 AM
i wonder why ppl still use the word "oomkin". (OutOfManakin)
It really doesn't apply anymore.

lol, i'd no idea it meant that.

i just preferred oomkin to anything else.


Gear depending, I woudl think the only two talents you "NEED" to tank 5 man content is Thick Hide and SotF. There are a few others that would make life easier, but you could easily take an almost full kitty spec and make a 5-man tank out of it. (I have tanked H-VH boomkin spec:grin: ) I had a crazy OP healer though and was constently taunting! (starfall is a nice threat too though)

agree those sound like the required talents.

i'd not like to tank VH-H with my gear as oomkin spec. i did put tank gear on the stats i had were not upto much !!

tlbj6142
04-08-2009, 09:31 AM
Gear depending, I woudl think the only two talents you "NEED" to tank 5 man content is Thick Hide and SotF. Funny, TH would have been one of the last talents I would have picked. SotF is easy as you want it for cat as well.

May I'll try something like this (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?druid=0000000000000000000000000000500232032322010 153100330313511203503012000000000000000000&glyph=000000000000&version=9757)? Or maybe drop iMangle and move those points into NR and FI??? Not sure what the value of iMangle is to cat DPS. Mangle isn't used all that much. I know it doesn't matter all that much in 5-man tanking...

Really, the hardest part of a bear/cat spec are the glyhps. I'd love to get FR and Maul for bear, but there are 4 glyphs for cat. Still not sure which cat glyph to drop...

Solarflash
04-08-2009, 11:16 AM
You are right, Thick hide is not needed. I was thinking it gave more armor and stam....I think I am confusing it with somthing else. Anyway. SotF is probably the only MUST have for bears, and since its a must have for Kitties too, its not a big deal!

I take many of the "Kitty" talents in my bear spec anyway. I always go 3/3 in KotJ mostly for when I am going to DPS/solo but its a nice bonus when you are tanking content way below your gear level too. Rage starved tanking is no fun!

Also 5/5 in RnT is a favorite of mine. 5k+ mauls on two targets, is a nice way to start an encounter. Gets threat in a hurry!

Kheldar
04-09-2009, 05:52 AM
thick hide does give more armour.

s3Rgio
04-09-2009, 06:53 AM
....I was thinking it gave more armor and stam....I think I am confusing it with somthing else. ...

thick hide does give more armour.
only armor, but not more stam