Why does it seem so difficult for people (especially on the Blizzard beta boards) to grasp that if you're in bear-form, it's for tanking with another healer in the group? It seems odd to me all these complaints about how self-healing in bear form is too costly, (switching to normal form then back to bear after heals) or that it doesn't deal enough damage. Perhaps it's the large influx of "Diablo kiddies" and the like, but a tank isn't supposed to self heal or deal massive amounts of damage, their job is to hold aggro and mitigate damage thru superior defensive abilities. That's it. If you don't have another healer, or other sources of damage, then you shouldn't be in bear form.

I find it worrysome to see so many posts complaining about the shapeshifted forms when it seems the vast majority of people complaining about their effectiveness are trying to use them for roles they're not intended to fill. I'd hate to see the shapeshifted forms drastically altered and the main form nerfed to compensate because a few (admittedly very vocal) people can't wrap their heads around the idea of class roles.

Simple, people are dumb
Complex, people think that because the druid is the "jack of all trades" that he should be able to combine them as he wishes, despite balance or logic.

Problem being, wouldn't a group rather have a real tank instead of a gimped one? At lower levels this might not be a huge issue, but...

why wouldn't a group bring someone who can fill the roll of any who fall or the role of what's needed depending on what mobs you're after?

I realize SOE didn't get druids anywhere near useful due to constant nerfs, they made a truly gimped class, i'm going to trust blizzard to make sure that they're still useful throughout the game.

Of course you'd rather have a real tank than a shapeshifted Druid, that's all they do, tank. :) If you're using bear form with a real tank in the group, you're not using the form as it's intended. The whole idea is that bear form serves as a serviceable tank til you find a real one, or an emergency tank if yours dies in combat. Once you have one, switch to cat or normal form dependant on which is most needed.

I have no faith in blizzard making a druid a viable tanking choice at level 60. Or a damage dealer at level 60. If you were, there would be no point in playing rogue or warrior, hence, gimp.

Granted it is an entirely different genre, but in the RTS world, Blizzard has done an excellent job setting up games with different but balanced races. I've played both Starcraft and Warcraft 3, and at both the casual and competitive levels the races are balanced. SC is balanced at the ultra-competitive level afaik, and War 3 is getting there.

All I'm saying is, they understand balance. It is entirely possible to set Bear form up as a viable tank without making Warriors obsolete. Warriors can have the highest AC, HPs and skills, and Bears can take second place. Bear form needs work at the higher levels, where stat and gear gaps widen. With feedback and time to test changes, they have the opportunity to balance the game.

Cat form is great at my level (25). Damage output is significantly higher than that of normal form, but lower than that of a rogue. All Blizzard needs to do to retain this balance is adjust damage tables at the higher levels to compensate for higher quality weapons available. Again, they have an enthusiastic bunch of testers, a working product, plenty of time before launch, and most importantly, a demonstrated ability to act on feedback from their testers.

Not everyone wants to be a min-maxer every moment of their game playing life. I'd so much rather group up with good friends who are having a good time, maybe being slightly less effective than another group who doesn't talk, joke around or have much fun.

I'm with Panamah there, i'm far more into enjoying my playtime that setting goals and min-maxing to get them, now, that said, i do enjoy a moderate level of competition and success.

Druids will be a tricky class for blizz to work with and keep everyone happy, they don't want them overpowered and they also don't want them gimped. Either way, i'll be playing one and loving every (or nearly) minute of it, as i'll be partying with people i like (and who hopefully like me) and enjoying the RP and conversation as we traverse the content of the game.

That's the niche Druids bear form pretty much exists to fill, people who want a serviceable tank that isn't as good as a real one but will get the job done. (well, that and the 'emergency backup tank') If people keep their expectations realistic, there should be no difficulty balancing the shapeshifted forms with the Druid's primary role as a healer. It creates flexibility in classes needed for casual groups which is always a positive thing, the balance issue only becomes a problem when people suggest silly things like cost-free shifting and other changes that remove the penalties behind switching to an animal form.

I play a preist in beta, and it boggles my mind when druids didnt train taunt or use bear form.

with preist sheild and heals, there is no reason why a druid in bear isnt a servicable tank.

people really need to lose the EQ mindset. Especially on horde side, where we only have warriors and no paladins, druids MUST consider themselves as a alternate tank

until we get hunters anway :)

I think a fundamental problem with the bear form ability is that because it doesn’t use items, it is impossible to balance it against the variety of differently equipped warriors (and paladins) which will exist.

The problem arises in how well the druid (in bear form) should tank. If they can tank as well as a well equipped warrior then there would be no point being a warrior at all. Might as well make a druid and have versatility added to tanking ability, and also not have to worry about getting good tanking gear.

If the druid tanks as well as an average equipped warrior, then the same problem still arises for all but the well equipped warriors. And even the well equipped warriors would be of rather dubious use – sure they could tank a bit better, but lack the versatility of being able to use different forms.

If the druid tanks as well as a poorly equipped warrior then this has the same problem of making the poorly equipped warriors obsolete, and the average equipped warriors of dubious usefulness. However a second problem starts to arise as to whether the druid is still good enough to be tanking in many situations.

Finally if the druid tanks worse than the poorly equipped warriors then the warriors are still useful, but it is doubtful whether the druid will actually be able to tank at all.

Trying to balance one class which uses equipment with another class which doesn’t seems to me to be an impossibility.

A better solution would be for each of the druid forms to have “items” then can use, so that the normal form would use the current items, and the animal forms might have “items” like thick fur, strong bones, strong muscles they could “wear”. Drop rates for druid items would need to be increased (or prices for sold items decreased) a lot to compensate for druids effectively requiring 3 sets of equipment, but it seems to me to be the only way to properly balance the classes.