View Full Forums : A question about Druids in Raid encounters


Erevan
04-14-2005, 07:30 PM
Hello all,

I'm a 35 druid on the Stormrage server and I was curious about our roles in Raid enoucnters. The only things I've been able to find/chat about with people on the main forums or in-game is the fact that only Innervate spec'd Druids are wanted for Onyxia and Molten Core. Naturally most of the crap floating around on the main boards is total BS but I haven't found much on these forums either about our role in the endgame. Stormrage isn't a PvP server and I'm not too concerned with Battlegrounds at the moment since they're not in, and who knows when they will be.

A friend of mine brought up an excellent point; which was once you hit the numbers of a big Raid (30-40 people), you have so many people playing all classes that the versatility that makes the druid excellent in smaller instances will become useless since you have enough of every class to fill all gaps. I.e. If you have 5 Warriors, or more, what purpose would there ever be to turn into bear form. Likewise with extra DPS classes or healers why bother with a druid?

It seems like our valued versatility becomes quite useless when we are in a group with so many who can do everything we can and then some. Can anyone let me know how this ends up playing out in Raid encounters?

Milhouse
04-14-2005, 07:55 PM
Usually when a raid group is built, they look for tanks, DPS and healers. If they can't find enough priests, they'll look for druids, and you'll be a primary healer. If they get enough priests, then you'll be expected to be backup healer, but you can do all your feral tricks. This is my experience anyway, and I've been lvl 60 for a couple months.

Ndainye
04-14-2005, 10:27 PM
End game PvE raids druids play a support role. We are healers, curer's and innervators. Ocassionally Druids will off tank or take a primary healer role, it depends on what your guild/raid group has available.

Keeping my fingers crossed I should be entering MC within the next 2 weeks (my guild has already cleared all but Majordomo I'm just playing catch up) and should also get a chance to participate in Ony/Az/Kazz kills fairly soon as well. Once I've gotten some experience with the locations I plan to post a Druids Guide to MC ect.. However from what I've seen in guild chat and elsewhere Priests are the primary healers and the Druid (and shaman for that matter) role is to keep the Priest's alive/uncursed/ and mana'd. Several MC fights involve seriously bad Curses and Druids are key for those (mages can and do decurse but you really want them available for DPS if possible).

I won't say that only innervate Druids are wanted for MC/Ony ect.. since I do know of a few non innervate Druids that are in guilds that consistantly clear those mobs. Different guilds have different strategies for the fights, some do innervate chains some don't. Personally I feel that if you are in a "healing" role that you are hurting yourself and your guild if you don't have innervate since it is so powerful. Understand taht except in very rare instances you will not be picked for raids to be a Bear, a Cat or a Nuker, this is not to say that you won't use those forms when on raids, but that you won't be picked for a raid for that ability. You will be there to be a healer.

chloee
04-15-2005, 08:25 AM
I also find Innervate to be good in PvP too, so I don't think there's much reason to not have it :)

But yes, in Molten Core and Onyxia we will be mostly healing, curing, and innervating. Your friend mentioned that since all the major classes would be represented in such a big raid, our purpose of filling the gaps would not be needed. This statement isn't true! One of the big misconception about Druids is that we can only fill the place of a Priest, Warrior, or Rogue and at a lesser capacity, but the truth is that in each of those corresponding forms, we can do a thing or two that those classes cannot. In the raid environment, we bring MotW, Thorns (ok mediocre), and Faerie Fire. We also can babysit tanks with our Nature's Swiftness/Healing Touch for when there are lapses in the Priest chains. Then there is Rebirth; we can bring Warriors and Priests back into the fight once they are dead. Since other classes cannot rez in combat, this ability is extremely useful.

As a Druid you will find yourself at the very top of the list for raiding. Your healing abilities may be somewhat replaced by Priests if a guild happened to get 10 or more active ones, but your other abilities are still invaluable to any raiding party.

<3Chloee

Cenaurius
04-15-2005, 10:05 AM
i've raided brs 5 or 6 times and strat 3 or 4 times, and each time i was used as a primary healer. one of the priests, who was the healer in another party of the raid, and i were chatting off and on and as we threw heals. she said that druids are better healers than priests, but priests are still better at keeping people alive since they can shield. another priest in the raid also told me that our HoT is more mana efficient, and while flash heal is more mana efficient than regrowth, it is arguably less so when regrowth crits, which is a majority of the time that you use it with full talent points. and then of course, there is innervate to consider. these priests both said they played druids, so maybe they just have a favorable bias to us? anyone care to weigh in on our healing capabilities vs priests'?

chloee
04-15-2005, 10:25 AM
Druid's have slightly more mana efficient heals usually (talent specs can change this), and we can easily do most that is required of us as healers, but make no mistake that Priests are superior. Their flash heal, ability to shield, and group heal give them the ability to generate much more health per second than anything we can do. You also have to realize that endgame Priests will have anywhere between 2-3k more mana than us. Personally, I think Druids are about 80% of the healer that a Priest is taking everything into account.

Just for comparison, my characters are a 60 Priest and 59 Druid.

Cenaurius
04-15-2005, 11:27 AM
do you recall roughly how much mana your priest has? i am curious

Erevan
04-15-2005, 12:26 PM
This statement isn't true! One of the big misconception about Druids is that we can only fill the place of a Priest, Warrior, or Rogue and at a lesser capacity, but the truth is that in each of those corresponding forms, we can do a thing or two that those classes cannot. In the raid environment, we bring MotW, Thorns (ok mediocre), and Faerie Fire. ... Then there is Rebirth; we can bring Warriors and Priests back into the fight once they are dead. Since other classes cannot rez in combat, this ability is extremely useful. <3Chloee

I agree that the buffs from us can't be beat by other classes, and Thorns with a Retribution Aura seems like a very nice combo even at the Raid point. However any of the debuffs we can toss off (Faerie Fire, Demoralizing Growl, bleeds from kitty, etc.) are done better by other classes (Warrior, Warrior and Rogue), and with the limit on the number of debuffs a mob can have on it puts a damper on us assisting against the creature that way. It seems like since we can do a few things in Caster form that others can't do, sadly thats the only form that ends up being useful.

So since healing is the only thing we can do that is useful in a not unique but adequet way, it still would seem to a balanced Raid group that the Druid ends up being a bit on shafted end of things to do. Has anyone ever done Bear or Kitty vs. one of the MC bosses or Onyxia? How about using Hurricane or some of the other Balance spells? Are their circumstances where we are able to use our versatility in Raids? On Bosses?

edit: grammar and a better follow up question

chloee
04-15-2005, 01:49 PM
Unless your guild respects you as a player, most people will frown upon you going into feral forms during an MC raid. Druids can offtank certain mobs in MC with bear or use cat during some clearing.
Are their circumstances where we are able to use our versatility in Raids? On Bosses?
I'm not sure if you mean changing forms by "versatility," but like I said earlier, Innervate and Rebirth are extremely valuable during boss fights and unique to us. To my knowledge, Faerie Fire stacks with everything that is typically put on a mob. No one has said STOP CASTING FF so I don't think its blocking anything :P Demo Growl however does get overwritten by Warriors.

Cenarious- our Priests run from 8500-10k mana and Druids from 6k-7.5k when raid buffed.

Erevan
04-15-2005, 02:16 PM
By versatility I meant changing between all 3 forms depending on the situation as you can do in non-raid instances. I'm not knocking Rebirth or Innverate at all, and I didn't know that FF stacked with Sunder Armor. I was just curious if you knew of a circumstance where you'd have the need or want to change forms multiple times during one of these very long raid boss fights?

It seemed to me that sadly the PBAE attacks these Raid bosses do hose a lot of classes that have melee capabilities but not the HP of a warrior/paladin. So I wasn't sure if the possibility of even getting into close combat existed, save for the warriors of course. I understand that taking on one of these massive bosses is quite different from any other encounter, but having never Raided in EQ or any other game I was hoping that maybe there was a chance that WoW perhapse did something different.

Glyss
04-15-2005, 04:24 PM
In raids druids are mostly casters, occasionally tanks. Bearform gives me more hp/ac than most of our warrior tanks plus we have a way of generating rage BEFORE the fight even begins... this is something a warrior can't do, and we all know how important rage is to a warrior for keeping aggro. Catform dps even after the patch is still really ****ty and meleeing a boss usually puts you in range to some short distance AoE most bosses have, so you end up taking damage and being a liability to healers more than anything. Mostly if you're on a raid you will be main healing, healing support/curing, or offtank. Like Blizzard said, we're meant to be primary healers more than anything else.

-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh

Kebster
04-15-2005, 04:57 PM
Yea...we can get more hp/ac than most warriors sometimes...but we also lack the parry, block and higher dodge that warriors have, keep that in mind.


I was skimming through everyone's replies and I failed to see one of the most important feature a druid brings to a raid besides innervate.....rebirth, I dont know how many times a druid res has brought up another priest or paladin and they have been able to res countless other people that have died because they are now out of combat.



The only time I have seen or I have changed forms in a raid is when **** hits the fan and I need to tank something because the warriors are dead, or I need to hp/ac for bad aggro. I have occasionally went cat when the healing is good and we are clearing trash mobs in MC.

Ndainye
04-15-2005, 05:50 PM
In raids druids are mostly casters, occasionally tanks. Bearform gives me more hp/ac than most of our warrior tanks plus we have a way of generating rage BEFORE the fight even begins... this is something a warrior can't do, and we all know how important rage is to a warrior for keeping aggro.

Warriors have Bloodrage/Imp Bloodrage - similar to enrage but at a minor cost of health. They also have block/parry and better rage buildup/management than Druids. Occasionally a Druid will off tank but that's only when there's a shortage of Warriors.

Horde side Warriors are much more plentiful than Alliance side. Whereas Druids are more rare. I think that it's due to Paladin/Shaman choices.

Glyss
04-16-2005, 03:16 AM
Yes, we don't block or parry attacks but thats not necessarily a bad thing. When Onyxia was bugged before the patch, she would proc a knockback effect everytime the warrior parried or blocked one of her attacks. This sometimes caused a severe chain of knockback effects on the warrior which prohibited him from doing any damage and thus keeping aggro. Given the scenario, a guild named Ascent on the Medivh server actually used a druid to tank her and defeat her before the patch came out. As far as keeping aggro, I have never had a problem when I have offtanked (only a few situations) on a raid. So yes, it is possible, however usually not necessary except in special cases.

-Glyss 60 Tauren Druid
Black Blood Battalion - Medivh

Ceyne
04-29-2005, 08:39 PM
Sadly, our role in most traditional raids will always seem somewhat constrained. We have an excellent buff in GotW, a good debuff in Faerie Fire, and very competent heals. This is largely what groups expect when a Druid is brought in.

Unfortunately, I am constantly explaining to fellow Horde about the nuances of our rez. Yes, in the right circumstances, it is "ftw" so to speak. However, those times are few and far between compared to the utility of a real rez that doesn't have a half hour timer on it. As another kick in the teeth (though off topic), try applying that rez to the PVP environment and you will find it sadly lacking. Frankly, I love the druidic way and all our glorious abilities, but I've lost track of the times I've been embarassed of Rebrirth's limitations and had wished so hard for just one regular rez, even if it gobbles all my mana or turns me into a human for a while.

~Aida

Ndainye
04-29-2005, 08:54 PM
Never be embarassed by your res ability. Be upfront about the need to have a primary resser in the group. Shaman are a dime a dozen you can always get a shaman to be backup healer resser.

My typical response to anyone asking me to join a group is "what classes do you have in group atm?" If their response does not include a resser I inform them I will join if they get a shaman if they have 4 people in the group and no shaman I tell them to get a priest. I'm also extremely picky about other types of group make up I won't do certain zones without mages or warlocks or priests.

On every fight in MC I have a Innervate target and a Rebirth target. And with very little exceptions those are the only people that they get used on, because they are the key people for the fight, and me keeping them mana'd or ressed makes me a key person for the fight.

Fadė
05-02-2005, 03:03 PM
Wow, I'm jealous. Most of my raid experience both on a PVP server and on a PVE server has been a chaotic free-for-all with little to no organization. There was no planning or thought that has gone into the group making process. Just a shout of "Raid to here, PST for invite" and off you go. Then, once there, my "group" has tended to run off and do there own thing, so my "role" has been to spam moonfire and self-heal whenever possible.

I wish that I could get into a raid group that is grounded, organized and well thought out.

Mazikeen
05-02-2005, 05:33 PM
I don't mean to come across arrogant, but druids rock in all levels of instancing, all through the upper 50s I've had to use /dnd to freakin be able to quest.....(I have a problem saying no :-)) If not careful from like 52 on, you can pull the aggro off a equal level warrior with your moon/wrath combo just about anytime you want (my guilds primary 5 man team has always enjoyed playing "who can get the aggro for fun). Try it, when we have our priest grouped and I'm allowed to backup heal and do some damage, I'm running my casting gear and carrying near 6600 mana. Drop a fairie fire, moon fire, then wrath every 1.5 seconds and watch what happens, you better have a dang good warrior to hold him. You'll see crits regularly for 400 from your wrath, the occasional moon crit for near 300 and 87s streamin up with all those wrath hits, that's 400-500 damage like every 1.5 seconds without getting to mathmatical, plus the debuff. Never underestimate a druid specced for his playing style in an effective group that knows how to use him.

Wanna talk dragons? go to the temple and take on the twins, what are you gonna hit him with? moon and star, sure it's a long cast, but with the points in it, bam, crits, moon dot, and the occasional stun, it adds up and when all done, the druid goofing off in the back accounted for 30+% of the damage. That's in fighting.

All the other earlier comments are relevant to the healing side, except it was not mentioned that our HoTs, both of them, stack on priests HoTs, so your warrior can go in on someone like the baron with all that HoT in reserve, build a crap load of aggro, priest hit him with a shield once his rage is up and there he is, shielded, 70% rage and full health so your attention can go to your aoe crew. Fear the druid/priest combo for instances. Priest/mage is probably the best leveling combo out there, but endgame, IMO is priest druid, if you know each other and are experienced in your tactics you are a strong pair.

Always cracks me up when I'm spammed for something and I say, k I'll go with my priest, and they say "nm, we don't need two healers" LOL no, you nm thank you, not interested in grouping with a team that thinks all I am is a leather wearing priest :-)

Astrel
05-02-2005, 06:43 PM
I have found our Combat Rez to be the extremely useful in PvP combat. And I found this out a few days ago in Mauradon. We were ambushed by some horde and a level 60 Rogue (they had all 48's, a 54 Priest, and a 60 Rogue, a full 5 man group pretty much). Our group was me (54 Druid), a 58 Rogue, 47 Rogue, and a 47 Hunter, our 33 Priest stayed back so not to be seen (so he could rez if he were wiped and we figured we would be). If not for my Combat Rez capability we would have lost that fight for sure. a 4 Vs 5, with lower levels overall compared and we beat them all. I was able to combat Rez our 58 Rogue after he dropped first, and then the favored were in our odds after. He was 3/4's health, and vanished and ambushed ftw =).

roughcoat
05-09-2005, 07:40 AM
Hi guys,

My server is still showing up as low population and healers are at a premium. When I hit 58 I started to get invites to raids. More came in as folks realized that I could be relied upon.

I'm specced out full restore. I put innervate on priests and casters depending on the situation because I rarely need it for myself. My approach has been to cast a round of rejuv on the melees after they engage and start to lose health and then ht the main tank and on down the line as per needed.

The exception is when the melees are taking a bunch of rapid damage. In this circumstance I cast regrowth on the main tank and perhaps one other melee For the balance of the melees i just continue with the former strategy and hope they survive. I'm always trying to keep something in my back pocket for the mage who is bound to catch a hit sooner or later .

With this strategy, my mana has lasted through to the bitter end. Last night, I got some affirmation from a priest i was healing with. *He* very much appreciated my rez and innervate. At the end he said, "You do a better job than some priests i know!"

High praise indeed! ;)

Aidon
05-09-2005, 09:28 AM
In my guild, when I was still playing, Druids were vital to our raids. Druids and Paladins were back healers on the tank groups..or main healers on non tank groups and Druid and mage cures were crucial on certain encounters.

That being said...raid do not need tanking druids or DPS druids. Its that simple. Raids need healing druids. There are plenty of tanks, rogues and mages for the DPS roles. There are never enough healers...

I played a paladin, and at first I had hopes of being a main tank...I could get the HPs and armor, and I was skilled enough as a paladin to maintain the aggro, but ultimately it came down to the fact that heal spec paladin was plain more useful than another tank, and a DPS warrior was a waste of a raid space. The same goes with Druids. It doesn't matter how well you tank in bear form. Even if (through some miracle) you are as good as warrior...in the end, you are more useful as a healer than as a tank.

Cenaurius
05-09-2005, 09:47 AM
i have been asked to tank in a 10 man raid in ud strat a few times because high lvl druids with feral gear easily have more hp/armor than warriors so we will do for tanks in a pinch. while we don't have as many ways to draw aggro, growl can mostly get the job done. also 90% of the warriors i've partied without from outside the guild are weetarded, as in they seem to think they exist to kill one target and not make sure all targets are trying to kill them, so i think primarily being a healer gives us as a class a bit more insight into the kind of dmg every other class takes during a fight and how we can help.