View Full Forums : Honor system woes

04-20-2005, 09:10 AM
Well overall I'd say that patch yesterday was really good and I was impressed by how smooth it went. Still, they have a server problem and I don't think more hardware is necessarily the solution. As long as they figure out a way to make it better though, I'll be happy.

The top guilds on my server banded together and raided Orgrimmer last night, but it was mostly a disaster. As much as our top guilds hate each other, I guess that was a minor miracle to get everyone working together anyhow. When we started getting in the realm of 100v100 and 150v150 pvp, the server just fell to pieces. You would cast an instant spell and it'd land 90 seconds later, corpses would be running around on the ground, and the lag would keep you down to 4-6 frames a minute. Yea, I said minute :( At one point, I was sheeped while shifting to Cheetah form, but I somehow ran away as a sheep at Cheetah speed for a few minutes before the graphic changed. It was entertaining jetting around as a sheep I suppose lol.

I guess Battlegrounds is going to limit the number of people concentrated in one area but capital city raiding on medium to large servers is simply out of the question at the moment.

I'm also wondering about how they are going to calculate the honor. I hear its based on a percentage of the total population of each side. If that is the case, if everyone made 7 twinks on their account, wouldn't that increase the number of Warlords their faction get? Hm, I guess I hope they thought of something this mundane.

For those wondering how you stood in the first night of fighting, some people in my guild got up around 350 "honorable kills." I think I got to 80 before we went to hide in our lag-free MC instance :P Overall, I really enjoy the new stuff, but I hope they come up with something to allow large conflicts between hundreds without killing the server. No other online game that I can think of has managed to do so much with so many people though, so this bottleneck may just be something we have to deal with.

04-20-2005, 09:56 AM
I didn't really see "lag free" anything. I logged on around 6pm EDT and got hit with 800+ms pings. A friend of mine wanted a rogue dagger from Blackrock so we snuck over and had to deal with over 1s delays when performing actions. I'd get those nifty heals where the spell bar finished casting, but nothing happened. Talk about your proactive heals.

Just weird generic areas like Rutharian Villiage, Dun Modr, etc, were all 500+ lag.

I logged off shortly afterwards.

04-20-2005, 10:16 AM
We were extremely laggy in MC as well - so it's not a pvp only issue. I generally have a pretty good connection (less than 200 ms) last night I was averaging around 600 and we had some folks reporting in the 2k range (ouch!).

04-20-2005, 11:25 AM
I peaked at 16760ms last night. Once I went into an instance it dropped back down to 78ms. Hopefully things will level out in the next few days.

04-20-2005, 11:43 AM
It was laggy on Bonechewer in alot of the common areas. People know the servers can't handle massive large scale raids like that and did it anyway. Battle grounds are meant for such things. Hillsbrad became unplayable, as well as Arathi. I finally found a lagless time in Un'Goro and Azshara.

I also feel people have misunderstood the honor system horribly. Getting 200 honor kills in a raid group is really hardly any honor when you look at it. You points gained is based on a percentage of dmg dealt specifically by you, or if you are in a group, the points are divided. I was also met with people camping gryphon points in which "Just arriving" players are worth no honor. Also Groups of level 60's grouped up and tried to clear areas like Un'Goro and other level 50 zones. A group of 60's killing a level 51 is hardly any honor points between 4 of them no less.

I think the patch is awesome, the Honor system is awesome, but right now, in general it sucks because too many people didn't read how it worked.

04-20-2005, 12:21 PM
Yeah, my server was in complete chaos last night as well. Hopefully within the next week it should calm down some. Im pretty sure this weekend the servers will be packed to the max.

04-20-2005, 12:31 PM
All I saw was 4k ping, mass PvP (if you call mindless zergfests PvP) so I logged.

04-21-2005, 01:07 AM
I'm embarassed, but i was one of those people that didn't read the Honor System section of the patch notes.

If I'd have done that I wouldn't have been so surprised at the fact that lvl 60s were ganking my lvl 24 alt like crazy as I lesuirely strolled by with a cocky strut.

Here I was thinking "Wow, i guess no one cares about the dishonor points" then I voiced that in General Chat and then was informed that there was no penalty to dishonor points.

Guess I should have listened to Mom and learned to read. :banghead:

04-21-2005, 07:24 AM
So the 80 kills I mentioned earlier, that were almost exclusively in a raid group which had an avg of 25 people, have come out to be around 800 contribution points for me. I have absolutely no idea where that ranks me, and I didn't play at all last night. My best guess is that its enough for the 2nd rank at least.

Does anyone know the breakdown in ranks? I understand that the top rank is 0.1% of the population, but I'm not sure how it goes down from there.

04-21-2005, 09:32 AM
Unless it changed, there is no division in honor among groups/raids. If there were, healers (primarily us and priests) would be seriously disadvantaged. After all, I can easily if the healing load is high, do nothing but heal and thus be dealing no damage and without solo PvP I'd get none (and I really stink at PvP too...heh). The division of honor based on damage done occurs when you PvP outside your group/raid or when solo, which is where I think the confusion is coming from.

04-21-2005, 09:40 AM
Unless it changed, there is no division in honor among groups/raids. If there were, healers (primarily us and priests) would be seriously disadvantaged. After all, I can easily if the healing load is high, do nothing but heal and thus be dealing no damage and without solo PvP I'd get none (and I really stink at PvP too...heh). The division of honor based on damage done occurs when you PvP outside your group/raid or when solo, which is where I think the confusion is coming from.

The group shares the exp based on their % of the kill. So if one group kills someone they share the points. If one group and another solo person kill someone, it is first split btween the solo person and the group based on % contribution to the kill. Then the group's portion is divided equally among the group.

04-21-2005, 09:54 AM
Sooo... Basicly the large guilds will get all the goodies just like in EQ.

I play both PvP and Carebear and it appears to me the honor system so far needs some tweaking. The first night of the Honor system a lv 60 guildmate that has a lv 55 Horde Alt on a second account spent all night alternating killing each other. By the time I logged (about 3 hrs later) each one of them had over 100 Honor points and 0 dishonor points. The second night, a group of 3 of his lv 45 - 50 friends were killing his alt for points while he was alternating kills with another horde character. Seems to me the two major guilds could just spend a couple nights a week doing the same and pretty much end up the top 1% on the server. Also seems to me that the elite guilds would PL each of their members a Horde/Alliance Alt so they could do the same.... It is just basic nature to get free points while you can. Guess I should find a Horde point buddy tonight..

04-21-2005, 10:03 AM
The thing though is that you have to constantly do that since points decay and are re figured weekly. You can spend a week killing a friend and go buy your leet pvp gear but if you don't spend the next week doing the exact same thing you'll never wear that gear again. There's always going to be people attempting to exploit the system in lame ways but those are the people that will soon get bored with the game because spending 4 hours a day killing the same person isn't as much fun as spending 4 hours a day in actual pvp.

Chubbexul Demonsbane
04-21-2005, 10:11 AM
the way we calculate honor is fairly detailed, and a lot goes on under the hood while we crunch numbers to arrive at your final ranking for the week. However, what players will see when they kill an appropriate-level target is a simple message. We can't actually display your honor score from a kill when it happens because we don't determine the final value of a kill until the end of the day. Also, your honor points for the week are a percentage of the total honor points available based on your contribution to your team's overall effort for that week.

If you are grouped with others, then all players in your party also gain an Honorable Kill. In fact, it works just like experience points. And just like experience points, you'll get a group bonus for your Honorable Kill as well. At this point, the way we determine whether your opponent counts as an Honorable Kill works similarly to how we determine whether you will get experience from a monster. If you would get experience for killing a monster of the same level as the opposing player (i.e. their level number is not colored gray to you), then you'll get an Honorable Kill.

In some cases, you might end up joining with other groups to slay one or more enemy players. In those instances, we will not be using tapping rules to prevent other groups from earning an Honorable Kill as well. If multiple groups team up to kill a player, all groups will earn a percentage of honor based on how much damage they dealt to the defeated player. For example, imagine that an enemy player is killed by two other players. Player A was solo and did 35% of the damage, while player B was in a group and did 65% of the damage. Player A would get 35% of the honor from the kill, and Player B's party would get 65% of the honor. That honor would then have a group honor bonus applied to it before being divided amongst the group. Rest assured that even players that did not engage the enemy player (perhaps because they were healing instead of fighting) will get honor points; as long as you are in a group that helped kill an opposing player, you'll get honor.

The amount of honor you gain is based mainly on three factors: 1) your target's level, 2) your PvP rank, and 3) your level. Then, at the end of the week, we gather all your Honorable Kills and Dishonorable Kills, and then apply certain modifications based on relevant data. For instance, we track repeat kills, and the system will reward you less and less honor with each successive kill of the same opponent on the same day. You'll gain full points for your first kill, but you get far less points with each kill after that, to the point were you will eventually get zero if you continue to prey on that player. We also add a bonus to your score for participation in strategic objectives, such as conquering a Battleground or killing an enemy NPC leader, such as Thrall or King Bronzebeard. The exact number of strategic leaders has yet to be determined, but at the least, the four racial leaders for the Horde and Alliance will count as strategic objectives. For those out to kill the human leader, keep in mind that neither King Anduin nor Jaina actually qualifies as a strategic objective; it's the king's protector, Highlord Bolvar Fordragon, who is the true leader you must kill in order to gain bonus honor points for your faction.

At the end of the week, we will total everyone's honor points including modifications, and then compare everyone's scores against each other. Based on this, we arrive at 14 rankings for all PvP participants. Your final honor score for the week is thus a percentage of the total honor pool that is established for that week. The honor pool is set at a minimum value, and can be increased through the successful achievement of the strategic objectives outlined before. Because we will recalculate all ranks weekly, players can move up or down in rankings based on activity or inactivity. We will not reset players' points each week, so players don't start at zero and on equal footing each time we recalculate honor scores, but rankings will start to shift if a player begins to engage in more quality PvP action or begins to withdraw from PvP play. We anticipate that it will be quite some time before players eventually climb up to the higher ranks, as the system naturally requires players to amass large quantity of quality kills in order to break through to the highest levels. This could take several weeks, if not months, to happen

04-21-2005, 10:21 AM
I was really frustrated with honour at first because of all the bloody ZERGING.

Go to menethil: zerged.
Rez and take boat to thermadore: zerged.
Fly to gadget: zerged.
Enter ungoro: zerged.

That was the first 4 things I did after honour came in w the new patch. Since then it hasn't changed much, zerg zerg zerg, lag lag lag.

It is the mindless zerging that is lagging the servers too. Zerg makes pvp pointless and not fun at all, AND it lags the freaking server. What is wrong with people?!

Now for that faint glimmer of hope, the hope that Blizzard was aware of this when they created the honour system.

I think they did.

I had 71 kills and about 2800 honour points after day 1. Other people in my guild had up to like 150 kills, but only 1500 honour. Why? Because they got most of their kills in southshore running around getting 1 hit in on targets before they died.

Which means your kill count is irrelevant to your contribution points.

How I think it works:

Your group engages an enemy and kills him. You get an amount of honour based on some combination of his level and the damage you dealt to him. Say its 50 honour. Then it gets divided evenly between your group, so in a 5 man you each get 10 contrib points. If other people attack the same target, then you end up doing less damage to him, thus instead of dividing 50 honour, maybe you'll only be dividing up 40, with the other 10 going to the other group. So each of you would get 8 instead.

Bottom line: zerging will be horribly ineffective for getting honour, the best bet will be soloing or in small groups. Once people realize this they will stop the 40 man assault raids lagging the servers to death, and we'll get some cool pvp going on without all the horrid lag.

At least I HOPE that's how its gonna work. Max efficiency should be in groups of 2-3, and it should start to be really inefficient, to the brink of pointlessness above 10 people in a group.

04-21-2005, 10:24 AM
Oh and as for people setting up battles vs opposing players in order to farm honour back and forth between one another...

There are diminshing returns on killing the same player in the same day. This is to prevent corpse camping and farming.

And if two guilds were to meet somewhere and just farm honour between each other, Blizzard has said they will take action against them (suspensions I assume). This has been a problem with every pvp system in MMORPG's, so its nothing new, and blizz will just have to have GM's watching for it.

04-21-2005, 12:39 PM
Which also leads me to another question.....The Gurubashi arena...everyone there is red when you set foot on it's EVERYONE capable of being worth honor even to his/her own faction?

04-21-2005, 05:44 PM
It is a PvP arena so there should be no factions and everyone should be fair game. But that is just my guess.

04-21-2005, 05:45 PM
actually astrel, from what i've heard, it's exactly like that. I'll see if i can check it out tonight and get a more solid answer for you.